OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

the assumption that the Ghost Martyrs are tricked into or forced into serving has to be wrong because that would be Chaotic, Evil, or both.

The assumption should be that the process, whatever it is, does not violate the code of the paladins.

Chaotic acts do not violate the paladin code. A paladin cannot willfully commit an Evil act. A paladin can willfully commit a Chaotic act. They just can't be Chaotic enough to swing their alignment away from Lawful, but Lawful does not mean automoton.

[KorvinStarmast]

There are laws in modern day against all sorts of things that exist in the Stickverse. I'm relatively certain that the mark of justice falls well within the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment", for example.

A magic world version of one of those leg bracelets that are usable in our country. Hardly cruel and unusual.

That would be a reasonable assumption. Why assume an explanation that requires this to be "evil" and thus a violation of their lawful good alignment, instead of assuming one which does fit under said alignment?

Because... {fill in the blank}

[RichTF]

Chaotic acts do not violate the paladin code. A paladin cannot willfully commit an Evil act. A paladin can willfully commit a Chaotic act. They just can't be Chaotic enough to swing their alignment away from Lawful, but Lawful does not mean automoton.

Huh, interesting, I didn’t know that. So you could reasonably argue that, RAW, being lawful is of secondary importance to being good, in terms of pure Paladin-ness?

That adds useful context to the events of SoD, and also when comparing Miko vs O’Chul in terms of who is the “best” Paladin. Thanks!

[arimareiji]

Because... {fill in the blank}

I'm really impressed by the gift today's kids have for deft wordplay to sum up nonsensical behavior.

"Because reasons", "mouth noises", crybullying, gaslighting, butthurt...

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm really impressed by the gift today's kids have for deft wordplay to sum up nonsensical behavior.

"Because reasons", "mouth noises", crybullying, gaslighting, butthurt...

New slang can be fun to learn, yes.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think for the "ghost martyr" thing, it's best not to try and take it too literally. It's something ghost-like, and martyr-like, with a non-coincidental relationship between those two aspects. We all know what happens when we take things literally (NFSW joke).

My question is, will Lay On Hands work on non-humanoids?

Yes, as long as they have hands for the paladin to lie on.

There are laws in modern day against all sorts of things that exist in the Stickverse. I'm relatively certain that the mark of justice falls well within the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment", for example.

The eight amendment prohibits punishments that are both cruel and unusual, not cruel punishments and unusual punishments. Some weirdo punishments happen sometimes because a judge offers a choice between an ordinary punishment (say 30 days in jail) and the weird punishment (a day wearing a sandwich board that says you're a thief).

The mark of justice might fly as an extraordinary condition of parole (which is probably justified in Belkar's case).

But the problem with the mark of justice in a common law country it that it was extra-judicial (it was up to Shinjo's whims to apply it and Hojo's to remove it).

It might be justifiable by some kind of informed consent, but since the parties are a head of state and a disappeared foreigner prisoner, it's pretty clear that Belkar's was in no position to consent to anything.

[Vikenlugaid]

Sure, it does. Soon called them, they came. There was no time for the formalities, and there were none who appeared unwilling to finish the fight.

But even if you reject the premise I set forth, the assumption that the Ghost Martyrs are tricked into or forced into serving has to be wrong because that would be Chaotic, Evil, or both.

The assumption should be that the process, whatever it is, does not violate the code of the paladins.

Of course, that's why I have exolained how I think it works several times, and fit all the facts, and doesn't violate the code: a paladin dies for the cause, therefore he/she became a martyr, then enjoy his/her well deserved afterlife till the day is summoned to defend the gate. Everybody happy here, none need to imprison souls, none is tricked by lack of information to deny the afterlife, everything lawful and good, and more important, not needlessly complicated. Why that would not work like this?

[brian 333]

Of course, that's why I have exolained how I think it works several times, and fit all the facts, and doesn't violate the code: a paladin dies for the cause, therefore he/she became a martyr, then enjoy his/her well deserved afterlife till the day is summoned to defend the gate. Everybody happy here, none need to imprison souls, none is tricked by lack of information to deny the afterlife, everything lawful and good, and more important, not needlessly complicated. Why that would not work like this?

Because that is a regular martyr. There is no need to put the ghost modifier on it. Regular martyrs die for their cause then enjoy their afterlives. These guys are quite obviously doing something else.

Because if the paladin is 'enjoying his afterlife' that paladin is growing away from worldly concerns and there will come a time when that former paladin has advanced to the point where worldly vows are forgotten and meaningless relics of a life left behind.

Because so few opportunities arise in life for a person to die for a cause that the ranks of the Ghost Martyrs would be filled with level 1-3 paladins who were killed on their first quest. They would be useless in the defense of the Gate.

Because most of the paladin-ghosts we see are aged beyond adventuring days, so their heroic deaths that caused them to become martyrs must have been their equivalent of fighting liver failure.

Because nobody is imprisoning souls, unless you count sleeping in the barracks with your spiritual brothers and sisters to be a prison.

And that last is the real issue. Begin with the premise that whatever Soon has done is Evil, then try to figure out how to turn it not-evil. Why not begin with the presumption that the paladins are not bound in a prison by an evil oath?

Begin with the presumption that Soon, a LG Epic Paladin, would not do horrible things like bind souls against their wills. Any argument that 'this idea is better than being trapped in an Evil spell' is fundamentally flawed. The idea has to be better than, 'this idea is how a LG Epic Paladin might do it.'

And since we know nothing of how it was actually done, we are most likely to be wrong anyway.

[Provengreil]

Huh, interesting, I didn’t know that. So you could reasonably argue that, RAW, being lawful is of secondary importance to being good, in terms of pure Paladin-ness?

That adds useful context to the events of SoD, and also when comparing Miko vs O’Chul in terms of who is the “best” Paladin. Thanks!

That was the intention of the 3.X developers, and was even outright codified in the rulebook in Pathfinder. Though I think making it that clear cut it was more aimed at vindictive DMs who hate paladins and constantly tried trapping them in "lawful vs good" situations to make them fall.

[danielxcutter]

I was more of the impression it was that it was an easy excuse for the gotcha DMs, but was there more to it? Yeesh.

[hroþila]

Regarding the question of whether the oathspirits were summoned from the afterlife or permanently bound to the Gate, there's this scene in 310b, a bonus comic strip in War and XPs, where Shojo talks to Eugene:

Spoiler

Show

Shojo: Oh, I understand and I normally wouldn't dismiss you so abruptly. But there are certain... forces... that are uncomfortable with your presence [in the throne room]

That might suggest that Soon at least was continuously present in the throne room, not chilling in the afterlife

[Vikenlugaid]

Because that is a regular martyr. There is no need to put the ghost modifier on it. Regular martyrs die for their cause then enjoy their afterlives. These guys are quite obviously doing something else.

Because if the paladin is 'enjoying his afterlife' that paladin is growing away from worldly concerns and there will come a time when that former paladin has advanced to the point where worldly vows are forgotten and meaningless relics of a life left behind.

Because so few opportunities arise in life for a person to die for a cause that the ranks of the Ghost Martyrs would be filled with level 1-3 paladins who were killed on their first quest. They would be useless in the defense of the Gate.

Because most of the paladin-ghosts we see are aged beyond adventuring days, so their heroic deaths that caused them to become martyrs must have been their equivalent of fighting liver failure.

Because nobody is imprisoning souls, unless you count sleeping in the barracks with your spiritual brothers and sisters to be a prison.

And that last is the real issue. Begin with the premise that whatever Soon has done is Evil, then try to figure out how to turn it not-evil. Why not begin with the presumption that the paladins are not bound in a prison by an evil oath?

Begin with the presumption that Soon, a LG Epic Paladin, would not do horrible things like bind souls against their wills. Any argument that 'this idea is better than being trapped in an Evil spell' is fundamentally flawed. The idea has to be better than, 'this idea is how a LG Epic Paladin might do it.'

And since we know nothing of how it was actually done, we are most likely to be wrong anyway.

1- They ere martyrs, till the time they are summoned as ghosts and therefore are ghosts and martyrs.

2- and? Why there should be an infinite amount of ghost martyrs? The SG is still running so there are paladins diying for the cause every year to take the place of those who died a long time ago.

3- well not more useless that the ones we saw. The real guardian is Soon anyway.

4- Soon was old and still his ghost is young, that's irrelevant, maybe those paladins are like Eugene, they were old men in the inside all their life.

5- Sleeping in the barracks ETERNALLY without something else to do is pretty much WORSE than most prisons.

6- That's exactly what I am doing. In my assumption there isn't any evil oath. I didn't begin with any premise that Soon has done anything evil. That's the main point. My idea is exactly "how (I think) a LG Epic Paladin might do it".

And remember, the paladins were not informed of that.

That might suggest that Soon at least was continuously present in the throne room, not chilling in the afterlife

Oh, I am like 99% sure that Soon himself was continuously present in the throne room.

[Provengreil]

5- Sleeping in the barracks ETERNALLY without something else to do is pretty much WORSE than most prisons.

Only if you're conscious. But even if you are, that kind of eternal watch is exactly the kind of hardcore oathkeeping that is a major sub-theme in the paladin roleplay fantasy. I have no issue believing that Soon was both conscious and satisfied with his choice the entire time.

[brian 333]

1- They ere martyrs, till the time they are summoned as ghosts and therefore are ghosts and martyrs.

2- and? Why there should be an infinite amount of ghost martyrs? The SG is still running so there are paladins diying for the cause every year to take the place of those who died a long time ago.

3- well not more useless that the ones we saw. The real guardian is Soon anyway.

4- Soon was old and still his ghost is young, that's irrelevant, maybe those paladins are like Eugene, they were old men in the inside all their life.

5- Sleeping in the barracks ETERNALLY without something else to do is pretty much WORSE than most prisons.

6- That's exactly what I am doing. In my assumption there isn't any evil oath. I didn't begin with any premise that Soon has done anything evil. That's the main point. My idea is exactly "how (I think) a LG Epic Paladin might do it".

And remember, the paladins were not informed of that.


Oh, I am like 99% sure that Soon himself was continuously present in the throne room.

1- all martyrs are ghosts. No need for the modifier unless they are more than simply regular martyrs.

2- infinite is obviously hyperbolic, but how many martyrs would there be in 80 years? Going around destroying goblin villages and murdering defenseless goblins certainly would not create martyrs, and from what we know there have not been many serious threats to the gate. So, where did all the Ghost Martyrs come from?

3- before RC, an epic cleric, banished them they were handing Xykon and RC their posteriors on a platter. Lowbies couldn't even scratch either one of them. They were serious threats to anything attacking their gate.

4- yeah, all of them.

5- you assert that as if it is true. You provide no evidence that it is true. How could sleep be torture if you do not experience the passing of time?

6- your entire premise is based on the idea that Soon gave them a crappy deal and yours is better.

And with no knowledge of how it is actually done you continually assert that the paladins were not informed and did not consent. Would your argument change in any way if it is learned that they were all volunteers with an opt-out clause?

[Peelee]

I take issue with the idea that the paladins in the throne room died for a cause. They died trying to stop Xykon from taking over/destroying the world. That's no more martyrdom than when Roy did the same. Or when any hero dies opposing any villain. Or hell, any villain who dies by a hero, since the villains believe in what they're doing.

IIRC the Giant once commented that being Good is hard, ans it should be, but being a paladin is even harder, because you're accepting even more stringent requirements and sacrifices on yourself that aren't needed to be Good. Even if the Sapphire Guard didn't know about the ghost martyr deal (and I'm not so sure), why not imagine that at the moment of death, they're given a choice to go to the afterlife or remain as a ghost martyr, sacrificing their immediate reward for service? Agreeing would sure as hell be in-line with how any paladins worth their title would act anyway, you get full informed consent without loss of operational security, and it has exactly as much evidence backing it as "they went to their afterlives and then came back" (read: none).

[Vikenlugaid]

1- all martyrs are ghosts. No need for the modifier unless they are more than simply regular martyrs.

2- infinite is obviously hyperbolic, but how many martyrs would there be in 80 years? Going around destroying goblin villages and murdering defenseless goblins certainly would not create martyrs, and from what we know there have not been many serious threats to the gate. So, where did all the Ghost Martyrs come from?

3- before RC, an epic cleric, banished them they were handing Xykon and RC their posteriors on a platter. Lowbies couldn't even scratch either one of them. They were serious threats to anything attacking their gate.

4- yeah, all of them.

5- you assert that as if it is true. You provide no evidence that it is true. How could sleep be torture if you do not experience the passing of time?

6- your entire premise is based on the idea that Soon gave them a crappy deal and yours is better.

And with no knowledge of how it is actually done you continually assert that the paladins were not informed and did not consent. Would your argument change in any way if it is learned that they were all volunteers with an opt-out clause?

1- what? Not all martyrs are ghosts.

2- well, in the comic there were not too many ghosts not counting the ones just murdered by Xykon.

3- bleh, useless against anyone strong enough to conquer an entire city. Just a distraction. Soon is the real defense.

5- who said anything about torture? I called it prison.

6- my entire premise is, precisely, that Soon didn't give them a crappy deal at all.

It is confirmed in comic that the paladins didn't know about the ghost martyr thing, Hinjo said that only the ruling family knew about that.

IIRC the Giant once commented that being Good is hard, ans it should be, but being a paladin is even harder, because you're accepting even more stringent requirements and sacrifices on yourself that aren't needed to be Good. Even if the Sapphire Guard didn't know about the ghost martyr deal (and I'm not so sure), why not imagine that at the moment of death, they're given a choice to go to the afterlife or remain as a ghost martyr, sacrificing their immediate reward for service? Agreeing would sure as hell be in-line with how any paladins worth their title would act anyway, you get full informed consent without loss of operational security, and it has exactly as much evidence backing it as "they went to their afterlives and then came back" (read: none).

Yeah, that fits too, but I think the other option is simpler, why must they wait at the throne room?
The default when someone die is to enjoy the afterlife, without evidence I go with the default.

I mean, this story has a lot of comedy, but it has epic and drama too. The concept of the paladins waiting at the throne room to defend the gate "forever" is very very very dramatic... If that is how it is, why don't show it?

[brian 333]

The problem is that 'enjoy the afterlife' is incompatible with waiting to be called to defend the gate.

The afterlife removes all material attachments over time, which means that the vows taken while alive soon become meaningless. As an example, when Roy was playing blocks with Eric he lost track of time. All the worldly stuff just wasn't important, until he was reminded, and at that point he was dead for only a few weeks. Now, imagine a few years of being dead.

"Bin-Dun! Evil attacks the gate and you are called to serve!"

"Soon as I finish my Bit-o-Honey™ candy bar! block castle-city."

Good thing Soon is all the defense you'll ever need!

[Peelee]

Yeah, that fits too, but I think the other option is simpler, why must they wait at the throne room?

Because the dead normally cannot affect the material plane. Eugene was able to talk to Roy though highly specific circumstance, and even then he was only allowed to talk, not actually do anything. The ghost martyrs can physically act on the material plane, which is significantly more powerful, especially with their additional extraordinary defenses (lowercase "extraordinary", not intended as the game term)

The default when someone die is to enjoy the afterlife, without evidence I go with the default.

That is indeed the default, but as stated above, the ghost martyrs are a vast departure from default, so i see no reason to assume default.

[brian 333]

Peelee and brian333 agree. There is a disturbance in the Force that I have not felt in a long time. I require liquor and flapjacks while I ponder this. Forget the flapjacks. And the pondering.

[Peelee]

Peelee and brian333 agree. There is a disturbance in the Force that I have not felt in a long time. I require liquor and flapjacks while I ponder this. Forget the flapjacks. And the pondering.

I've strongly agreed with you on at least one other thing in the last week. It's not that unusual to be loved by anyone

Sorry, I couldn't resist

[Doug Lampert]

Peelee and brian333 agree. There is a disturbance in the Force that I have not felt in a long time. I require liquor and flapjacks while I ponder this. Forget the flapjacks. And the pondering.

Peelee's current location is listed as Washington DC rather than Birmingham Alabama, thus he's probably gone to the dark side and is now evil. This explains any otherwise uncharacteristic behavior.

[Kish]

"Paladins fall if they commit a single evil act, if they commit so many chaotic acts they drift into Neutral Good, or if they grossly violate the paladin's code" is substantially older than 3ed. And even in the heyday of paladins being expected to have sticks up their asses, paladins were unable to adventure with evil characters and were expected to frown sternly at chaotic ones they adventured with.

[Peelee]

Peelee's current location is listed as Washington DC rather than Birmingham Alabama, thus he's probably gone to the dark side and is now evil. This explains any otherwise uncharacteristic behavior.

Actually this has been off and on in the works for years.

[brian 333]

I've strongly agreed with you on at least one other thing in the last week. It's not that unusual to be loved by anyone

Soq@rry, I couldn't resist

as@

Okay, I could pass off the first as a fluke. Like a cosmic alignment that happens qaaonce an eon. But twice? That's a pattern!

I do usually enjoy our disagreements because they sharpen my ever-dulling wits. I'm told that your hair turns grey because the roots have finally reached the grey matter and are now sucking it out. So, you can imagine how smart I used to be before it turned white.

On topic: I don't recall any paladin issues as player or DM at my table, though I do recall hearing about "the problem with paladins" virtually from the dawn of AD&D. I even wrote and administered a seven module paladin quest which got an eighth episode in my Duchy of Tinald Invasion which pitted my players' favorite PCs from across the campaign setting against a massive army. At one point I had three PC paladins cooperating to recover a lost Holy Sword. Nobody tried to sabotage anyone's character, and the bickering was no worse than usual.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Paladins fall if they commit a single evil act, if they commit so many chaotic acts they drift into Neutral Good, or if they grossly violate the paladin's code" is substantially older than 3ed. And even in the heyday of paladins being expected to have sticks up their asses, paladins were unable to adventure with evil characters and were expected to frown sternly at chaotic ones they adventured with.

Yes. And that was before Charisma was a casting stat.

[Vikenlugaid]

The problem is that 'enjoy the afterlife' is incompatible with waiting to be called to defend the gate.

The afterlife removes all material attachments over time, which means that the vows taken while alive soon become meaningless. As an example, when Roy was playing blocks with Eric he lost track of time. All the worldly stuff just wasn't important, until he was reminded, and at that point he was dead for only a few weeks. Now, imagine a few years of being dead.

"Bin-Dun! Evil attacks the gate and you are called to serve!"

"Soon as I finish my Bit-o-Honey™ candy bar! block castle-city."

Good thing Soon is all the defense you'll ever need!

Why? Roy spent all that time and still got resurrected. I don't see the problem with being summoned to defend the gate even after many years. They were not normal people anyway, they were paladins, even in the afterlife they are supposed to be responsible men and women, that fits perfectly with being summoned to one more fight, why not? Even in the afterlife they should fight once in a while, like Roy's grandpa.

Because the dead normally cannot affect the material plane. Eugene was able to talk to Roy though highly specific circumstance, and even then he was only allowed to talk, not actually do anything. The ghost martyrs can physically act on the material plane, which is significantly more powerful, especially with their additional extraordinary defenses (lowercase "extraordinary", not intended as the game term)

That is indeed the default, but as stated above, the ghost martyrs are a vast departure from default, so i see no reason to assume default.

The ghost martyrs aren't default when they are summoned, we can't assume what are they doing before that, so I assume the default.

[Peelee]

The ghost martyrs aren't default when they are summoned, we can't assume what are they doing before that, so I assume the default.

Imean, at that point you're just assuming whatever you want to be true regardless of anything, but if you want to then I can't really talk you out of it.