Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm very interested in this, though I plan to wait until the whole series is available. I'm a huge fan of the book (as well as most of the author's other books), and I liked the 70's adaptation with Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune.

It is visually excellent.

Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?

Yes.

I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.

Yep.

Shogun is my favourite novel, I've discovered new details, nuances and subplots every time ive reread it.

I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that.

He was a stranger in (to him) a strange land.

I keep my belief Shogun is about the clash of two cultures,

Yes. The book was very good. The Chamberlain/Mifune mini series was very good. I am hopeful that this one will maintain standards. So far, two episodes in, the quality is high.

[ben-zayb]

For those who have watched both Shogun and Blue-Eyed Samurai, how do their scripts/dialogue compare to each other?

I'm interested in checking this out, but most of the people who recommended Shogun to me were also the ones who recommended BES. I just couldn't get past how un-Asian (if that's even a word) the Blue -Eyed Samurai dialogue felt like to me.

[Eldan]

I haven't seen both, but significant parts of Shogun are spoken in Japanese, by Japanese actors and it's decently well reviewed in Japan.

[Cikomyr2]

For those who have watched both Shogun and Blue-Eyed Samurai, how do their scripts/dialogue compare to each other?

I'm interested in checking this out, but most of the people who recommended Shogun to me were also the ones who recommended BES. I just couldn't get past how un-Asian (if that's even a word) the Blue -Eyed Samurai dialogue felt like to me.

BES is ultimately a cartoon, even if its for adults. It has a bit cartooney sensibilities and drama.

They genuinely strived for realism and historicity of culture in Shogun. So much that they changed named characters from the book to give them more period-appropriate names. The japanese spoken in the series is apparently also more authentic to the period compared to modern japanese (akin to actors actually speaking Shakespeare's english in a period-appropriate play).

[Rodin]

BES is ultimately a cartoon, even if its for adults. It has a bit cartooney sensibilities and drama.

They genuinely strived for realism and historicity of culture in Shogun. So much that they changed named characters from the book to give them more period-appropriate names. The japanese spoken in the series is apparently also more authentic to the period compared to modern japanese (akin to actors actually speaking Shakespeare's english in a period-appropriate play).

It felt very appropriate to me, although my limited Japanese did show me that the subtitles were a bit dodgy at times. The worst being some cases of “speaks Japanese” which were characters grunting or saying simple phrases like yes or no.

Story-wise any concerns I had of “white savior” were quickly laid to rest. In fact I’d go further and say that Blackthorne isn’t a major player in the story - he is the Western observer to events that would have happened even if he hadn’t been there.

[Ruck]

I can't much speak to the historical or cultural accuracy myself, but Shōgun is excellent drama all around.

[KorvinStarmast]

We are through episode 4. The quality remains high. Well done to the crew who worked on this.

[Rodin]

A question to those who have read the book - did the series cover the whole novel? Or can we expect a season 2?

[Eldan]

Covers the book, and it's been repeatedly said there won't be another season.

[Infernally Clay]

Covers the book, and it's been repeatedly said there won't be another season.

It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to anyway. The early years of the Tokugawa Shogunate were largely peaceful (thanks in no small part to "Toranaga" employing the same hostage tactic Ishido used, forcing rival lords to behave), with "Toranaga" passing away only sixteen years after the events of the first season and "Blackthorne" a few years after that.

[ben-zayb]

I haven't seen both, but significant parts of Shogun are spoken in Japanese, by Japanese actors and it's decently well reviewed in Japan.

BES is ultimately a cartoon, even if its for adults. It has a bit cartooney sensibilities and drama.

They genuinely strived for realism and historicity of culture in Shogun. So much that they changed named characters from the book to give them more period-appropriate names. The japanese spoken in the series is apparently also more authentic to the period compared to modern japanese (akin to actors actually speaking Shakespeare's english in a period-appropriate play).

Thank you both, I gave it a try and greatly enjoyed the series. Easily the best thing I watched this year.

I must admit I did laugh when he was like "Bathe? Twice in one week? Do you want me to CONTRACT A TERRIBLE DISEASE?"

This lead me to search all over different social sites to confirm if this is bi-weekly bathing habit is actually a thing... I guess it makes complete sense in countries far from the equator, especially during Winters, but from someone living in the very humid tropics, this was an absolute shock to me.

I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.

Hell, he keeps a pistol on him at all time because he knows he doesnt stand a chance against a samurai who trained with a sword all his life.

Shogun, for me, is about the clashing of two parallel worlds; the Japanese and the European. Both worlds are in turmoil, with centuries-long wars having left a mark on their respective cultures. The Protestant/Catholic conflict in Europe, and the Sengoku Jidai in Japan.

Until Blackthorn's arrival, japanese were misled to believe Catholics were the only relevant power in Europe, and thus assumed they HAD to trade through them. The arrival of diverging powers who could rival the Catholics and challenge their monopoly on silk trade is a game changer for everyone involved, and Toranaga immediately sees it.

Ultimately, the "main" character/Point of View character may be Blackthorn, but the story is about Toranaga. Its about how Toranaga adapts to the changing rules of the game better than any other rivals. The story starts with Toranaga seemingly at his weakest.

Blackthorn is not the Savior coming in to save Toranaga's ass. Blackthorn is a pebble that starts a landslide that will completely reshape the face of Japan.

Completely agree. I'm pleasantly surprised that it never fell to the saviour trope. There wasn't really any solid instance in the story where Anjin wasn't a pawn to one of the players, with Toranaga being the major player who drives the plot forward. While Anjin has his own agency and motivation, his goals got dangled to him like a carrot to keep him moving where he's needed to be.


Did anyone else get a Bladerunner 2049 vibe with that Willow World scene?

Can some explain to me the deal with the disgusting rabbit stew and why Anjin hanged the pheasant to rot? Was the rabbit stew just a joke on British cuisine, or was he trying to do something there?

[Eldan]

The thing is also while Europeans did not bathe every day, from all the reports we have from the late middle ages, they still washed daily, it's just more sponging yourself down standing up than a full on bath in a tub. People only got really filthy in the early modern era, which this is set in.

[Cikomyr2]

Can some explain to me the deal with the disgusting rabbit stew and why Anjin hanged the pheasant to rot? Was the rabbit stew just a joke on British cuisine, or was he trying to do something there?

This is better explained in the book.

The rabbit stew he made was "rich", i.e. fat. Basically a very basic stew where the main taste comes from slowly boiling the flesh and bones of the animal. Something that plain disgusted his japanese guests, who are used to vegetarian diet or lightly grilled meat when they do eat meat. The stew was as horrible to them as some of the weirder Japanese food would be to us (and his guests' reaction made Blackthorn terrible self aware of his alienness and outsiders status).

The pheasant was left to.. well, to rot a little bit to tender the meat. I think the idea is that pheasant meat is pretty dry, and letting it fester a bit makes it more tender.

Which is completely alien to Japanese, who have an obsession with cleanliness regarding meat (at least in the book). Blackthorn just.. forgot about the bird, did not eat it in time, and the bird actually started to rot and cause problem in the village.

In theory, Blackthorn would have just prepared the pheasant after a few days of hanging, and would have looked like a foreigner - again - for eating weird disgusting food.

[Mechalich]

The pheasant was left to.. well, to rot a little bit to tender the meat. I think the idea is that pheasant meat is pretty dry, and letting it fester a bit makes it more tender.

Hanging carcasses is intended to cause proteinases present in the tissue to break down collagen. Collagen is the primary component of connective tissue and is very tough. Older animals will have comparatively more collagen, and wild game will, generally, be significantly older than livestock raised for meat (in modern agriculture, hogs are generally slaughtered at around 6 months and cattle at around 18 while wild deer or boar could easily be 4-5 years old), so the breakdown of collagen is important to produce tenderness.

It is, however, key to keep a carcass cool when hung, ideally in the low 40s F. This is only slightly warmer than inside a refrigerator and substantially inhibits bacterial growth. This changes above 50 degrees and rot can set in rapidly.

[Cikomyr2]

Hanging carcasses is intended to cause proteinases present in the tissue to break down collagen. Collagen is the primary component of connective tissue and is very tough. Older animals will have comparatively more collagen, and wild game will, generally, be significantly older than livestock raised for meat (in modern agriculture, hogs are generally slaughtered at around 6 months and cattle at around 18 while wild deer or boar could easily be 4-5 years old), so the breakdown of collagen is important to produce tenderness.

It is, however, key to keep a carcass cool when hung, ideally in the low 40s F. This is only slightly warmer than inside a refrigerator and substantially inhibits bacterial growth. This changes above 50 degrees and rot can set in rapidly.

So disgusting stuff to the Japanese:-P

[pendell]

How healthy is that? I know that in the modern world there's a two hour limit for how long meat can be out of the refrigerator until it is no longer considered "safe" to eat. Leaving it to hang for weeks sounds like there's time for all kinds of unhealthy, nasty things to get in there besides collagen breakdown.

I know that some groups in the real world, not vegetarians, consider hunted animals as unsuitable for human consumption; they allow the eating of farm-raised and slaughtered animals, but not hunted wild ones. I'm wondering if the reason is this basic sanitation issue.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eldan]

It's a crapshoot. Sometimes literally. If you know what you're doing and you follow that recipe your grandmother taught you, and the weather plays along, you're probably fine most of the time. If not, you're probably in that category where you take the meat out of the fridge and smell it and aren't entirely sure if it's still good. Might get food poisoning, might not. And sometimes, well, you just die.

[Mechalich]

Hanging meat really isn't that risky if done properly, and plenty of commercially available meat is in fact aged via hanging (ever seen Rocky?). The key is temperature and ventilation. Meat hung outdoors shouldn't have much issue with the later, but is at risk in the former case. Temperature impacts bacterial growth in distinctly non-linear ways. Ideally meat will be hung at or even slightly below typical refrigerator temperatures (~37-40 F), and even brief spikes of the temp above 50 F represent a serious risk. In the UK, winter temps that remain below 45 F for prolonged periods are common, but Japanese winters are slightly warmer and temperatures would be significantly more likely to breach the critical 50 F threshold during the day (especially in the lowlands, this is not an issue at altitude and winter hunting is a feature of the Matagi culture).

[Infernally Clay]

Sounds like there might be a second season after all.

https://deadline.com/2024/05/hiroyuk...ma-1235911076/

[t209]

Sounds like there might be a second season after all.

https://deadline.com/2024/05/hiroyuk...ma-1235911076/

I don’t know what it will cover since Shogun book might have been covered.
OR Shogun was too well known that other books became obscure.

[Mechalich]

I don’t know what it will cover since Shogun book might have been covered.
OR Shogun was too well known that other books became obscure.

The simplest option is to keep telling the historical tale. The series doesn't show the Battle of Sekigahara, the other events of that campaign such as the Siege of Ueda, Ieyasu's elevation to Shogun (and his soon to follow retirement in favor of his son), or the Siege of Osaka in 1614-1615. Ieyasu's traditional foil in telling his post-Sekigahara biography is Sanada Yukimura, who fought against his son at Ueda and led the Toyotomi forces at Osaka, so that character could hold down the opposition perspective.

There's certainly enough material to get 8-10 episodes worth of content made (Sekigahara itself is good for at least two, that's a battle with more betrayal than a whole season of Game of Thrones), and there's nothing wrong with having Blackthorne hang around the new Shogun for a while and get himself involved in stuff. William Adams, the historical inspiration for Blackthorne, outlived Ieyasu and in fact returned to Japan after a trade mission to Bangkok a mere were before Ieyasu's death, which is a heck of a setup for a final episode.

The tricky part is that there's no good replacement for Mariko. While the real-life Hosokawa Gracia's death was a huge embarrassment to Ishida Mitsunari and had more or less the same consequences it does in the novel (though the circumstances were much less dramatic, she was killed by a retainer who then committed seppuku). Pretty much everything else in the novel about her is invented (she and Adams never even met). William Adams did, in fact, marry a Japanese woman while living in Japan, but precisely who this lady was is not known. A second season could focus heavily on such a story, with Adams overcoming grief and finding love again (if I were writing the series I'd make the new love interest one of Yukimura's daughters), but, whoa, following in Anna Sawai's footsteps on that front is a big ask.

[Infernally Clay]

If Blackthorne is going to have a romantic subplot, I can think of a certain lady with plans to become a nun that fans would like to see again.

As for what the show could explore, in truth they’re going to have to do their own thing rather than look to history. Like I said a couple of days ago, the founding years of the Tokugawa Shogunate were surprisingly uneventful because Tokugawa did what Ishida did and used the wives and children of rival lords as hostages to keep them in line. William Adams didn’t actually show up in Japan until Tokugawa had already retired as Shogun, either, and so anything Blackthorne does to aid Toranaga in becoming Shogun or while he is Shogun will have to be entirely fictional.

I can, however, see how the show might end if they’re going the whole way. Fourteen or fifteen years after the first season, when the heir to Japan, Nakamura, is in his early twenties, you could absolutely make a whole season out of Toranaga’s failing health as he contends with whom many consider the true heir to Japan and the threat Nakamura’s and Lady Ochiba’s continued existence poses to the fledgling Shogunate Toranaga spent the last fourteen or fifteen years solidifying. Presumably the show would end on Toranaga’s passing, or perhaps on Blackthorne’s a few years afterwards as he alone of the cast bears witness to the legacy Toranaga left behind.

[pendell]

If I were writing the second season, I would take the last chapter of the book, which ends with Toronaga musing on his plans to defeat Ishido, then outmaneuver the council of five left as regent by Hideyoshi to govern for his son until he was of age. Then the final siege of Osaka, one of the great battles of the world in which western ships and cannon played a significant part. That allows us to write in a side part for Blackthorne.

So we have a lot of game of thrones-style action with some really dramatic set piece battles. All of this happens off-screen in the original book, but it can be brought front row center for spectacle in season 2.

My thought would be to have the battle of Segekihara in season 2, leaving the culminating Siege of Osaka for season 3, if one is renewed. I have no idea what they're going to do once Toronaga has successfully achieved his ambitions. Some how I don't think modern Japan is going to look at the brutal persecution of religious minorities which were a characteristic of his later reign.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Clertar]

I initially reacted with skepticism and a bit of worry to the second season rumours, but I think it's the right call. Ideally, I would have wanted the same team from Shogun to do another series about historical Japan; we'll get effectively that, only with the intertia of a great first season. And for me, what made this series outstanding was the care and love for historical detail and ambiance, there could have been fewer political thriller plot points and I wouldn't have enjoyed it less.

[Mechalich]

My thought would be to have the battle of Segekihara in season 2, leaving the culminating Siege of Osaka for season 3, if one is renewed. I have no idea what they're going to do once Toronaga has successfully achieved his ambitions. Some how I don't think modern Japan is going to look at the brutal persecution of religious minorities which were a characteristic of his later reign.

Somewhat conveniently, Tokugawa Ieyasu died less than a year after the conclusion of the Siege of Osaka, making it extremely logical to end the show in its aftermath with a single concluding episode following Tokugawa victory in the summer campaign.

[Cikomyr2]

So it'll be a sequel based off of historical events and not a Clavell novel? Huh

[pendell]

So it'll be a sequel based off of historical events and not a Clavell novel? Huh

That's an assumption on our part; it seems logical and flows well from the existing material. Although it's also possible Disney will try to ... well, Disneyfy it. Maybe John Blackthorne's daughter will show up on the scene and conquer Japan all by herself or something

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

So it'll be a sequel based off of historical events and not a Clavell novel? Huh

Hiroyuki Sanada agreed to return as Toranga/Ieyasu, so it's going to be a continuation of the existing story. Season One ended basically where Clavell's novel does, so there's no material by him to follow (the novel includes a brief post-Sekigahara epilogue, but does not stage the battle itself). However, since the novel follows the contours of historical events quite closely aside from the insertion of Blackthorne and generally 'pumping up' certain incidents for additional drama such as the death of Mariko/Hosokawa Gracia it is easy to simply continue along the existing historical narrative when adding additional material.

The obvious move in a hypothetical Season Two is devote roughly half the season to Sekigahara, including the build up, concurrent events such as the Siege of Ueda - a very significant event that throws Ieyasu's master plan into serious jeopardy because nearly 40,000 troops under his son's command are not present at Sekigahara due to the actions of the Sanada causing him to fight the battle substantially outnumbered, the battle itself - a massive set piece that includes well-known made-for-fiction apocryphal events, and the immediate aftermath.

It's worth noting that despite its status as a seminal event in military history, the Battle of Sekigahara has relatively few live-action depictions (it has appeared in anime and video games quite often), with an eponymous 2017 Japanese film being the only full-scale treatment of the battle. Shogun, which has a giant pile of money behind it, could present the battle as never previously staged, which is surely a tempting prospect.