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2022-09-01, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-09-01, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Also, he does know the exact strength of an earth elemental relative to that of a titanium elemental. That's not exactly chemistry, is it, now?
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2022-09-01, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Europe
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Let me look out my window to check.
I can Spot some big trees obscuring most of my view, grass, paved paths from the sidewalk to the gate, a trashcan, streetlights, three parked cars, the tobbaco store, and clouds on the night sky. No sun, checks out. I'll try again when I grow old, in case the extra point of wisdom helps.
What else would it be? Craft? Profession? Speak language? It feels like Perform to me when I do it.Last edited by b_jonas; 2022-09-01 at 05:13 PM.
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2022-09-01, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
D&D does not, as far as I know, have typewriters or keyboards, so the RAW answer would be that typing is not represented by any skill. In a setting where keyboards of some sort did exist, I would put it under Profession. I don't think typing is "a form of artistic expression", as the rules describe the Perform skill, and I certainly don't think anyone has ever paid to watch someone type for entertainment.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-09-01, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
No number of monkeys playing no number of clavichords (or any other keyboard instrument) will ever produce the complete works of Shakespeare. Therefore Perform: Keyboard and Typing are different skills.
They will, however, eventually play a clavichord rendition of Taylor Swift's catalog (or that of the Grateful Dead if they're undead monkeys).
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2022-09-01, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Last edited by Peelee; 2022-09-01 at 06:24 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-09-01, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I am assuming you are unfamiliar with the works of Tim Youd.
I wasn't either until I looking it up, but yes some people will pay to watch or own something someone else typed - to be clear by typed I mean not original work but something the artist has literally typed word for word from the source material.
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2022-09-01, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Ok, don't know why you put all that irrelevant stuff in, because that doesn't address the point I was making, which you certainly know. Are you capable of seeing the sun?
If yes, then shocker, D&D rules are made for small scale combat and role play and not for everyday life imitation. There is no typing skill. You do not have skill ranks or levels. It is not equatable like you are trying to make it be.Last edited by Peelee; 2022-09-01 at 10:10 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-09-02, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I mean, that's true, but I'm not sure it's relevant to this example. If you assume that these are quantum monkeys who have an equal chance of hitting each key (which I think is the implication), then I think it's possible one of them eventually types out Shakespeare. Whether it's merely possible or inevitable verges on being more or a philosophical question than a mathematical one. But most of the ways to generate bounded number sets actually require having more order in the outputs, not less, so I think that with infinite random monkeys and infinite time, you probably do actually get all possible sequences coming up?
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2022-09-02, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-09-02, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Mangholi Dask
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
That does not refute the infinite monkey theorem, since the theorem doesn't make any claim about "all possible sequences", only that the probability of the monkey with infinite time typing any particular finite sequence is 1.
Sure, the monkey could hit only GHTB... for ever; but the probability of it doing this is (4/n)^k, where n is the number of keys on the typewriter, k is the number of characters in the sequence. This tends to 0 as k becomes infinite.
Similarly, the probability that the monkey's first k keypresses are not the Complete Works of Shakespeare can be precisely calculated, if we know how many keys are on the typerwriter and how many characters the Complete Works contain. Call this probability p; p is extremely close to 1 but less than 1 by a specific finite amount. Therefore, the probability that the monkey never types the Complete Works is of the form p^k, which tends to 0.Last edited by Sir_Norbert; 2022-09-02 at 08:37 PM.
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2022-09-02, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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2022-09-02, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2022-09-02, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
What annoys me about the infinite monkeys and Shakespear thing is the number of copies of the complete works of Shakespear there would be that were off by one letter (n ~= number of letters in the complete works of Shakespear), and the number of copies of the complete works of Shakespear that would be off by two letters (n ~= (number of letters in the complete works of Shakespear) squared), etc. Never mind the complete works (and multitudinous almost complete works) of Lewis Carroll, Dickens, Bronte, Tolkein etc. that would also appear.
Last edited by halfeye; 2022-09-02 at 10:29 PM.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2022-09-03, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Actually, per correct copy, there'd be approximately number of symbols used times number of distinct symbols used minus 1 copies that were off by one character.
Based on the number of words, there are probably well over 5,000,000 symbols in Shakespeare's complete works. Let's go low and figure only 5,000,000. (There are 884,647 words in the complete works according to the Folger Library, literary works typically average over 6 characters per word.)
If we assume 26 lower case, 26 upper case, and a minimum of 8 other symbols (.,;:" !?), that gives a minimum of 50 symbols used.
If we assume random choice and that we actually have infinite monkeys and enough time for a monkey to be likely to produce the correct number of characters even once, then the monkeys will produce an INFINITE number of copies of the complete works of Shakespeare. (You don't need infinite time.)
But on average you will need to search 50^(5,000,000) sequences to find even one correct copy of the complete works. This will take a while unless you have an infinite number of computers doing the search, not to mention the minor problems of needing infinite space and infinite mass-energy to store all those copies while someone searches them.
You can do slightly better by biasing the random character generator (aka monkeys) to hit the space bar more often than other characters, but it's still gonna be a very very very large number of books of gibberish for everything that's even vaguely close to the complete works.
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2022-09-03, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
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- Bracciano (Italy)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
To clarify, an "infinite number of monkeys with a typewriter" is a bad representation because monkeys would tend to have similar patterns, even in infinite numbers.
Then they would produce an infinite number of extremely varied permutations, but not ALL permutations.
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2022-09-03, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-09-03, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
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- Bracciano (Italy)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
For fun, this it a random text generated by an Ai with keywords: Xykon evil conquer
"I have resolved to take the throne of the Necrons from Xykon once I am strong enough. I will return you to your former battle stations. Then we will discover what evil has been buried deep under the sands."
May the gods of darkness be with you.
The Xykon Cry of Fear-Grim
"You are taking his name. He was the one who made the prophecy. And now I am going to end it. I will smash his head into the sand."
Quarrel's footsteps trailed behind Xykon's final words. And there he was, a twisted nightmare from ancient times, haunting Quarrel's dreams. Xykon stood in his host's home, a ferocious, bearded man with eyes of fiery red, and a sword far too long for his hands. His presence was as unnatural as it was haunting. Xykon ordered Quarrel to attack Quarrel's new host, the evil wizard Xykon. Xykon knew this would be the first step in creating the Dark Xykon, and would make Quarrel evil himself. Xykon considered evil as evil, and planned to destroy any evil who was not evil, and to conquer the world with the power of the Dark Xykon. Xykon would always be the ruler of all the evils of the world, conqueror of evil, conqueror of everything evil."
The problem with recreating art with random generators is that, even when you take out senseless mess of random letters and work with correct words and sentences, you still get mostly garbage.
Spoiler: Link to the generatorhttps://app.inferkit.com/demo
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2022-09-03, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2022-09-03, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Europe
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Oona must be making clear that these are not real monkeys! This is word picture, for making understanding! No trying to go to money cage! They are not real!!!
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2022-09-04, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
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- Bracciano (Italy)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
There are setting, you can make it much more random. I tried, it became very dadaist. The difference between an AI and infinite monkeys is that you still get "Monster clay furnicates red" but you don't get "aweo pcmiqronyc gseulx, oà". Let's be honest, you don't need the second one.
The point essentially is: the infinite monkey image is wrong and an artifact of a pre-AI era.
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2022-09-12, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Even at the most random, an AI text generator is still doing some processing. If you wrote it so that it picked words at random from the dictionary, then it would, indeed, in theory eventually generate the complete works of Shakespeare if you could run it for an infinite time period, and if it instead generated random characters, you would have a modern interpretation of the intent of the monkey idea. That doesn't make it "wrong" or "an artifact."
As I said above, whether this actually "works" or just generates an infinite number of other sequences is more of a philosophical question than a mathematical one. If you accept that the monkeys are random character generators, then the chances of any given combination of characters emerging will converge towards 1 as the number of characters generated goes towards infinity. That's just basic math for any probability that is larger than zero, so it really just depends on what the nature of infinity is and whether the chances of generating the complete works of Shakespeare are actually zero or just incredibly, incredibly small, and the math would seem to support the idea that you would eventually get that (or any other) result.
Decent writeup here: https://www.czep.net/weblog/typemonkey.html. Note, however, that all of his simplifying assumptions make it easier to get the right results, so the estimate of the odds might be wildly off...but if you substitute a computer program that randomly outputs characters, then the number of seconds calculated there will be the number of cycles it will take, on average.
You're probably (although I don't think anyone could say for certain) correct that the AI as currently written will never generate Shakespeare's complete works, but that's precisely because it's not random, and the point of the original thought experiment is to demonstrate how randomness works, and the difference between vanishingly unlikely and impossible.
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2022-09-12, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
(Enfasy mine)
You first misunderstood what I wrote, that wrote what I wrote with different words.
It's fine, the end goal is to understand. As long as we agree or politely disagree, it's a win.
Besides, what I said is that I don't consider "infinite monkeys" as a reliable, complete random characted generator. As monkeys have a generic monkeysh pattern when using a typewrites, they would create an infinite number of books, with a potentially infinite number of perfectly identical copies, while some potential book wouldn't ever exist.
An AI programmed to systematically write every combination of characters would, instead create every existing book and more.
"Typing monkeys" is an artifact in my opinion. It was a good approssimation when AIs were not a thing, ma we should stop using it.Last edited by Laurentio III; 2022-09-12 at 12:08 PM.
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2022-09-19, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Northern Ireland
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
This may be semi joking but 1268 gives a few skills to some characters
Durkon: Craft (Baskets)
Belkar: Craft (Soap)
O-Chul: Profession (Beekeeper)
Not sure where Crocheting would sit. Or Astronomy"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2022-09-19, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Looks like today's comic provides the next thread title, too
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2022-09-19, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Knowledge: Astronomy?
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2022-09-19, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2012
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
3.5 doesn't have a knowledge astronomy. From Complete Arcana we do have Profession (astrologer).
Basket Weaving is noted in the Player's Handbook as a craft.
Crochet is not mentioned as a skill anywhere. I can find tailor, which is profession, but crochet feels more a craft. Not an official skill.
Blowing smoke rings also not a official skill. Feels like a preform, but preform is mostly instrument and acting. Not an official skill.
Soap making is mentioned in the Dungeon Master 2 guide as a Craftsman Specialty. Which is an chapter about rolling random professions for NPCs and city building, but is literally called a craft. Not an official skill.
Beekeeping isn't mentioned as a separate skills, but is generally governed by Handle Animal. However the specific mention of "experienced" could mean an ability, feat or skills with a higher bonus than other animals. But that could also be fluff. Tentatively I would agree with Handle Animal if others agree.
So sadly from a strict RAW perspective we cannot add a lot. But we do got a chance to list Craft (Basketweaving).Proudly addicted to pointing out where exactly rules can be found.
Countdown to Belkar's death and my follow-up count gives us less then 3 weeks left. Poor Belkar.
Avatar by Akrim.elf
___
What effects allow a saving throw?
List of almost all 3.5 skills.
Old PF Initiative Build
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2022-09-19, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- Germany
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Ares - Music and sounds system for roleplaying
Avatar by Rich Burlew.
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2022-09-19, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Ranked from favorite to least favorite for me
1. We were hoping for something more useful
2. I struggle to imagine how that might be relevant
3. I don't think we should take anything for granted
4. We should never discuss any of it ever again
5. I don't see it listed here
6. We're really making progressLast edited by Ionathus; 2022-09-19 at 12:27 PM.
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2022-09-19, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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