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2023-10-09, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I of course have often trouble with assigning CR, but... I feel like something that doesn't have any offensive capabilities, nor poses danger or posseses the abiltiy to defend itself... should probably stay at 1. Maximum.
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2023-10-09, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Yup. That's the issue. On their own, the birdies aren't any dangerous. But with a team of aggressive passengers, zooming through favourable terrain full of defenseless enemies… How much being a potent enabler's worth in terms of CR is really the question here.
Edit: I'd also argue that AC 22 and good flight are decent enough defenses against 1st level opponents, and Intimidate +14 does something for offense against the same.
Edit (the Second): I'm still lowering the CR, though. Does 2 sound reasonable?Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-10-09 at 01:49 PM.
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2023-10-10, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Have you tried Vorpal Tribble's CR estimator?
Vorpal Tribble’s CR Estimator
#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5, 4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.
#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.
#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).
#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.
#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.
#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.
I found it works fairly well
DebbyP.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
my creations in homebrew signature thread
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2023-10-10, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I know it, I just keep forgetting to use it.
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2023-10-11, 07:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I cannot emphasise this enough: it may work well for some creatures, but it works extremely badly for others. Do not ever use it without also checking against other ways of estimating CR. In some cases it gives answers which are totally, hilariously wrong.
They may not be not much us in this particular case, but for most creatures using the following tables produces more reliable results:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...+monster+stats
http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monsterCreation.html
Some caveats: the first one, by the nature of averages and random chance, is a bit "swingy" ie some stats are higher or lower than is really representative of their CR. You need to look at the CRs immediately above and below the desires one to check if this is the case (I have a "smoothed" version I made if you'd like to see it). The second one is for PF and the average attack and damage does not represent 3.5 creature averages above approximately CR 15 (again, I have a table I wrote which estimates it more accurately if you're interested). Thirdly, those tables only give base stats like saves and AC, you will need to compare its special abilities with other monsters of similar CR and adjust accordingly.Last edited by Biggus; 2023-10-11 at 07:20 AM.
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2023-10-12, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I like that one! I've ben using it a lot since I first encountered it (also by way of you) in… I'm going to say one of Blue Jay's threads? It's nice to have a copy of it here. Thanks, Debby!
And yes, it has its limitations (one of them being that it breaks down, big time, at high number of HD), but nothing that can't be worked around. If one gives some thought to what the proper weight of given abilities should be and treats Deathless/Plant/Undead/Construct traits as package deals (otherwise they'll hyperinflate the CR figure), I find that it doesn't need very hard adjustment once the calculations are done.
With the Overfinch, on the other hand… It helps not.
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2023-10-21, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Well, the problem is that it completely ignores some very important factors in CR, such as attack and damage, initiative, and innate spellcasting. If the monster has any of those at a high level, the CR it gives may be way off.
Inspired by this thread, I'm currently working on an improved CR calculator. It's only at an early stage at the moment (if I get it into a workable state I'll post it in the 3E forum).
In its current form it's giving a CR of between 4 and 5 for the Overfinch, which may be a bit on the high side, but as I said it's a work in progess. On the other hand, the Overfinch has very high HPs, AC, saves, and save DC for a CR 2 creature, so I'm pretty sure 2 is too low. I'd probably say CR 3 or 4.
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2023-10-21, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
True (although spellcasting/SLAs is a thing it explicitly allows giving up to quintuple points), but at very high levels, the hp bloat shoots it in the face anyhow.
Inspired by this thread,
I'm currently working on an improved CR calculator. It's only at an early stage at the moment (if I get it into a workable state I'll post it in the 3E forum).
In its current form it's giving a CR of between 4 and 5 for the Overfinch, which may be a bit on the high side, but as I said it's a work in progess. On the other hand, the Overfinch has very high HPs, AC, saves, and save DC for a CR 2 creature, so I'm pretty sure 2 is too low. I'd probably say CR 3 or 4.
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2023-10-21, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
It doesn't, it says "if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities" not "if it has a decent number of spells or spell-like abilities".
Yeah, it's a tough one. Apart from anything else its value as a force multiplier is highly situational, in practice its effective CR value could be anywhere between 0 and 5. This isn't too unusual though, I've also been working on a compendium of incorrectly CR'd monsters (which I'll also post in the 3.5 forum if I ever manage to finish it: I keep finding more monsters to add...) and I've had to add a special section of "it depends" monsters.
I'd agree that if you want to be conservative CR 3 is probably the best estimate.
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2023-10-21, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
…
You're absolutely right. But I think it can kind of be used to cover that general area too, inasmuch as it can accurately cover SLAs.
This isn't too unusual though, I've also been working on a compendium of incorrectly CR'd monsters (which I'll also post in the 3.5 forum if I ever manage to finish it: I keep finding more monsters to add...)
and I've had to add a special section of "it depends" monsters.
I'd agree that if you want to be conservative CR 3 is probably the best estimate.
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2023-10-21, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I have thoughts on things and lots of time to write them:
Sabulon: surprisingly good representation of fighting a sand being in most fictions. Love it. You could maybe add an interaction with water or water spells that remove the half damage from weapon but increase its natural armor.
Khalx: Maybe I'm blind, but I don't get what the red crystals and red decline are supposed to represent, which makes the creature a bit bland at first glance.
Spearmint: Hook: "You have sealed your own fate. Your last breath... Will also be your freshest!"
Never seen so many d2s in a single monster entry. Hells, that die doesn't even exist! I mean, 1d6 cold is more relevant, though similar (3.5 average damage compared to 3 with 2d2) and I feel more in line with other cold bonus damages which are generally a single die (Frost Worm, Winter Wolf, Chraal...). And you did a good job channelling your inner WotC. LA+2 for this, wow! You know, plant traits are not that good.
Quivering Palm: Hah! Nice.
He really is the incarnation of the pun, and I like that. I'm not sure how I feel about the leaf slaps being so much weaker than the slam, on the one hand it's hilarious, and on the other hand it's ridiculous.
Hryzuun: I came expecting copper, and I found gold! It's interesting as a puzzle encounter, with a slow elemental, but dealing a ton of damage with each attack (an average of 38 damage per hit with Shining Crown can litterally be a one-shot against squishy characters, and two-shot against bulky ones at level 6). I feel like it would be a bit more interesting with some amount of SR to not be so easily kited with spells, and maybe a way to smell the gold on adventurers to more easily trigger a fight or a negociation.
Palykandor: How do you choose these names? Do they mean something? I feel like I should know what element each of them is, but I can't quite figure it out. This makes me think that a Phosphor elemental would be nice, catching fire when exposed to water. That said, I feel like the CR is much too high. It's not as strong as a Greater elemental, maybe not even as strong as an Elder one. Vorpal Tribble gives me CR 9, which I feel is a decent estimation but still a bit high for the lack of defense and low offense. Its HP is average for CR 8.5, AC for CR 7, and BAB is CR 8. I'd personally give it a CR 8, especially with its personality of not spamming its Lightbringer on enemies that are still afar.
Spider Plant: So it's a flower, with eight legs, each with a spider-looking spider plant at the end. You really went all-our didn't you. Forgive me for this question, but why does it speak goatfolk? "Know your enemy"? And why giant? I didn't ask for the quivering palm, but Meta, be honest, do you choose your languages randomly by rolling a d%?
Imago: As someone who has read the official monster statblock for the Imago, I both love you for creating a much better version and despise this monster simply for having the same name as a symbol of WotC's ineptitude. It's a good evolution for the nymph, even disregarding the pun, and I like how it's more well-rounded, able to go full druidzilla, though I wonder why the adult form is less beautiful than the nymph, considering it doesn't blind people with its beauty anymore. I don't think I know of any butterfly that is worse-looking than its coccoon.
Green Ant: You should mention that it has three heads in the initial description. Also, (Ex) abilities don't have a default action, so you should mention that breathing with a single head is a standard action (if it is possible to breathe with one head, as I suspect). Also also, maybe reduce the effect of the breath on creatures that save to an effect that still allows actions. Maybe slow instead of daze? In the current form, even if a creature automatically saves, the Green Ant can permanently lock it. If it alternates its three heads, the only way the target gets a turn is if the ant rolls only 1s for all three heads' mist duration, and a 4 for the cooldown, which means 1/32 chance, more than enough for the creature to roll a 1 on their save. It's a bit too much for a CR 5 creature. Why is it an elemental? I feel like it should be a Construct or Magical Beast, I don't get the "feel" for Elemental, and the description doesn't give answers. I understand it's a chloroform elemental, but it's not obvious for someone who doesn't know the shape of semi-common chemicals.
Overfinch: CR 1? It's not a combat encounter, and if it was, simply moving out of the way removes its only ability.Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2023-10-21, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
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2023-10-22, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I'll think about it, thanks! (And thanks in general.) The only issue is, it's too much like Vitrefy, but I can't quite think of a name sounding as good as that which would cover both.
Khalx: Maybe I'm blind, but I don't get what the red crystals and red decline are supposed to represent, which makes the creature a bit bland at first glance.
Spearmint: Hook: "You have sealed your own fate. Your last breath... Will also be your freshest!"
Never seen so many d2s in a single monster entry. Hells, that die doesn't even exist! I mean, 1d6 cold is more relevant, though similar (3.5 average damage compared to 3 with 2d2) and I feel more in line with other cold bonus damages which are generally a single die (Frost Worm, Winter Wolf, Chraal...).
And you did a good job channelling your inner WotC. LA+2 for this, wow! You know, plant traits are not that good.
Quivering Palm: Hah! Nice.
He really is the incarnation of the pun, and I like that. I'm not sure how I feel about the leaf slaps being so much weaker than the slam, on the one hand it's hilarious, and on the other hand it's ridiculous.
Hryzuun: I came expecting copper, and I found gold! It's interesting as a puzzle encounter, with a slow elemental, but dealing a ton of damage with each attack (an average of 38 damage per hit with Shining Crown can litterally be a one-shot against squishy characters, and two-shot against bulky ones at level 6). I feel like it would be a bit more interesting with some amount of SR to not be so easily kited with spells, and maybe a way to smell the gold on adventurers to more easily trigger a fight or a negociation.
Palykandor: How do you choose these names? Do they mean something?
This makes me think that a Phosphor elemental would be nice, catching fire when exposed to water.
That said, I feel like the CR is much too high. It's not as strong as a Greater elemental, maybe not even as strong as an Elder one. Vorpal Tribble gives me CR 9, which I feel is a decent estimation but still a bit high for the lack of defense and low offense. Its HP is average for CR 8.5, AC for CR 7, and BAB is CR 8. I'd personally give it a CR 8, especially with its personality of not spamming its Lightbringer on enemies that are still afar.
Spider Plant: So it's a flower, with eight legs, each with a spider-looking spider plant at the end. You really went all-our didn't you. Forgive me for this question, but why does it speak goatfolk? "Know your enemy"?
And why giant?
I didn't ask for the quivering palm,
but Meta, be honest, do you choose your languages randomly by rolling a d%?
Imago: As someone who has read the official monster statblock for the Imago, I both love you for creating a much better version and despise this monster simply for having the same name as a symbol of WotC's ineptitude. It's a good evolution for the nymph, even disregarding the pun, and I like how it's more well-rounded, able to go full druidzilla,
though I wonder why the adult form is less beautiful than the nymph, considering it doesn't blind people with its beauty anymore. I don't think I know of any butterfly that is worse-looking than its coccoon.
Green Ant: You should mention that it has three heads in the initial description. Also, (Ex) abilities don't have a default action, so you should mention that breathing with a single head is a standard action (if it is possible to breathe with one head, as I suspect). Also also, maybe reduce the effect of the breath on creatures that save to an effect that still allows actions. Maybe slow instead of daze? In the current form, even if a creature automatically saves, the Green Ant can permanently lock it. If it alternates its three heads, the only way the target gets a turn is if the ant rolls only 1s for all three heads' mist duration, and a 4 for the cooldown, which means 1/32 chance, more than enough for the creature to roll a 1 on their save. It's a bit too much for a CR 5 creature.
Why is it an elemental? I feel like it should be a Construct or Magical Beast, I don't get the "feel" for Elemental, and the description doesn't give answers. I understand it's a chloroform elemental, but it's not obvious for someone who doesn't know the shape of semi-common chemicals.
Overfinch: CR 1? It's not a combat encounter, and if it was, simply moving out of the way removes its only ability.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-10-22 at 01:25 PM.
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2023-10-22, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
You could either make it seperate ability (I'll call it Mudden, just for pun), or you combine it into, I dunno, Silicate Composition or Body of Grains or something like that.
Basically, because it's a chemical substance, which makes it, for me, a better candidate than shadows or storms or whatever else official Elementals are somehow based on.
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2023-10-22, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I do think I know what they were thinking. There needs to be some reason something without treasure would want to fight the party, and "I'm eating you" is the easiest way. So you end up with knockoff zombies a lot. I do with they'd move past that into more interesting stuff.
Other basic ideas:
- Interacts with the party like a humanoid would (ex: myconids, vegepygmies).
- High Int, psionic (ex: brain seed).
- Not carnivorous, just evil (ex: needle spawn, blights).
- Uses bodies to spread seeds or seedlings (ex: yellow musk creeper)
- Part of it is valuable or used for magical purposes.
- Trap written like a creature (ex: shriekers)
More a list for my benefit actually, given what I'm currently working on. Still, I like that you're building up plants outside these themes.
I'm strongly in favor of any cool lore you can come up with for a monster. If I'm reskinning it or making it fit a different setting there's no real difference between having it or not, and if you create it I'm not forced to come up with my own ideas. Which is going to turn into a long rant about WotC's recent work if I let it so I'm stopping myself now.
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2023-10-23, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Okay, fair, but they are still stupid (WotC, not planties) and their face is stupid. I mean, "uses bodies to spread" (also kind of a zombie thing, gong just by the sound of it) is the only one of those that really sounds somewhat specifically plantlike.
[*]Trap written like a creature (ex: shriekers)
More a list for my benefit actually, given what I'm currently working on.
Still, I like that you're building up plants outside these themes.
I'm strongly in favor of any cool lore you can come up with for a monster. If I'm reskinning it or making it fit a different setting there's no real difference between having it or not, and if you create it I'm not forced to come up with my own ideas.
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2023-10-30, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
And I'm still alive and going… Well, not string, as such, but going! Have yet another Elemental (there was going to be another, but I didn't have it on me to write up its Description/Combat Tactics Summary, so it's only a statblock and SA/SQ descriptions so far) for when one's sick and tired of those damn Mirror Mephits:
Phthorik
Phthoriks reside on the Plane of Air, where the thick, pale yellow fog their bodies are composed of slowly rotates around its axes with apparent indifference. Even the other denizens of the plane prefer to avoid them, and they do not seek the company of any save for their own kind. The only plane other than Air they are commonly found on is that of Mirrors, usually as the summoned instruments of demons there to amuse themselves.
Phthoriks speak Auran, but are not particularly pleasant conversationalists.
Size/Type: Large Elemental [Air]
Hit Dice: 9d8+36 (76 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: Fly 50 feet (perfect)(10 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +4 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+12
Attack: Slam +12 melee (2d4+2)
Full Attack: 2 slams +12 melee (2d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Acrid mist
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, whet the teeth
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +13, Will +5
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 24, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8
Skills: Escape Artist +19, Hide +15, Move Silently +15
Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Elemental Plane of Air
Organization: Solitary or bond (4–9)
Challenge Rating: 6
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: 10–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: –
Combat
Phthoriks attack other creatures that move too close to them for their liking readily and without provocation. They rarely bother to try and reason with such foes and are loathe to retreat from combat, trying to vanquish or chase off foes using their acid as often as they are able.
Acrid Mist (Ex)
Once per round as a standard action, a phthorik can have a caustic cloud burst forth from its body, dealing 1d8 points of acid damage for each two hit dice it has to every creature within 20 feet of it. If the phthorik has suffered acid damage itself in the same round or the previous one, the damage increases to 1d8 points per each hit die the phthorik possesses.
Phthoriks are immune to this effect. Creatures and objects partly or completely composed of sand, glass, respectively sandlike or glasslike substances (such as a crystalline troll, glass mephit, nerra or sand golem), in turn, take damage from the mist as though they were vulnerable to acid.
Whet the Teeth (Ex)
Any creature that succesfully hits a phthorik with a bite attack receives a +1 alchemical bonus on attack and damage rolls with the same bite for the next 1d6 rounds. Subsequent hits might extend the duration of this effect, but the bonus conferred is not cumulative.
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2023-11-06, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
A quick in-and-out double update, coming up; contains the (rather demented) Elemental I mentioned earlier and something I found funny but you folks probably won't:
Eden-Galay
The long, flat, broad but thin vermiculate bodies of the eden-galay are most commonly a soft, silvery-metallic white, a dull gray or some combination thereof (its back and belly having different coloration being more common than patches or patterns). They slither about, usually in number, in the colder regions of the Plane of Earth, enveloping creatures or objects of more interesting shapes, seemingly out of pure curiosity: they are hardly aggressive, overall. While they do not sleep, they are known to even wrap around each other, forming amorphous bundles when at rest. The exact purpose ofthis behavious is poorly understood, and they quite consistently refuse to discuss the matter with outsiders.
Eden-galay speak Terran. Among themselves, they also communicate with patterns of rustling sounds; this quasi-language, however, can only express relatively simple concepts.
Size/Type: Large Elemental [Earth]
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 ( hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 feet (8 squares), climb 20 feet
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +4 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Slam +8 melee (1d10+9)
Full Attack: Slams +12 melee (1d10+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Bite back, improved grab, wrap
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: Climb +21, Intimidate +8
Feats: Ability Focus (Bite Back), Improved GrappleB Improved Initiative
Environment: Elemental Plane of Earth
Organization: Solitary or roll (2–40)
Challenge Rating:
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: 5–7 HD (Large), 8–12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: –
Combat
Eden-galay, while not cowardly as such, prefer never to fight alone, and retreat if outnumbered. When they possess a numerical advantage, they usually try to have one of their own number immobilize each opponent while others pummel foes so wrapped into submission.
Bite Back (Ex)
Any opponent that succesfully hits an eden-galay with a bite attack must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or take 1d10 points of electricity damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, an eden-galay must hit an opponent with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can wrap its foe.
Wrap (Ex)
An eden-galay can wrap its entire body around an opponent it grapples. An opponent so wrapped is considered entangled and cannot attack with weapons, but receives a +4 alchemical bonus to Will saves against mind-affecting and divination effects.
Skills
An eden-galay receives a +8 racial bonus on Climb check. It can take 10 on all Climb checks even if it is distracted or threatened.
♣
Creeping Horse
It is not difficult to see how these cavedwellers acquired their name: a creeping horse is easily mistaken for an improbably fat, bloated horse, its short fur a pale brown or grey, with a sparse mane and tail and four comically short legs. Instead of hooves, the latter appendages have three fingers each, covered in small plates of horn and ending in thick, curved claws the creature uses to cling onto and crawl across the walls and ceilings of underground cavities. Shy and easily frightened, creeping horses are innocuous scavengers cleaning up dead matter or ruminating the pallid fungi of their home, their huge, oval eyes nearly unblinking. They make reasonably good guides once a rapport is built with them, although that is not an easy feat to achieve. Offering them hard treats, sweet of taste such as sugar beets, however, is generally a good first step in that direction.
Creeping horses speak a curious creole of audible Grell, Sylvan and Undercommon (sometimes disparagingly called Creeping Grell), very slowly, their voice deep and dreamy. They tend to understand each of the three component languages of their tongue, if only passably.
Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 4d10+8 (30 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 feet (4 squares), climb 40 feet
Armor Class: 12 ( -1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+11
Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Drop down
Special Qualities: Creep, darkvision 90', low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 5
Skills: Climb +15, Escape Artist +2, Hide +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +2, Listen +2
Feats: Skill Focus (Climb), Skill Focus (Hide)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or herd (5–28)
Challenge Rating: 2
Alignment: Usually neutral good
Advancement: 5–9 (Large)
Level Adjustment: –
Combat
Creeping horses dread combat and do not engage in it they can avoid doing so. Should they feel an intruder or group of such intruders threatens the caves they dwell in, they will attempt to separate and ambush them one at a time, creeping up and dropping on them from above. The latter attack is generally described as a strange sensation, as though a giant pillow, its fluid weight shifting and bouncing up and down had buried its target underneath itself.
Creep (Ex)
Creeping horses are impossibly stealthy, despite their size. Their movement is accompanied by no sound whatsoever, and unless they speak or otherise signal their presence deliberately, they cannot be detected using the Listen skill or even Blindsense or Blindsight provided those are based on hearing. Further, they receive no penalty on Hide checks for size, nor does moving, regardless of the speed, impose such on the same.
Drop Down (Ex)
A creeping horse clinging to the ceiling of an enclosed space can drop down on foes below itself as a move action. When it hits the ground (taking falling damage, but treating the fall 40 feet shorter than it was) it covers the 10 feet by ten feet area immediately underneath its previous position. Opponents caught under its soft, blubbery body take 8d6 plus another 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per each 10 feet the body of the horse traverses, unless they succeed on a DC 15 Reflex save, which halves the damage. Furthermore, its odd body cushions the creeping horse's own landing: it never takes more than 4d6 points of damage from landing on an opponent, and it can attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save itself to render half that damage nonlethal. The save DCs are Strength-based.
Skills
Creeping horses have a +8 racial bonus to Climb checks amd can always take 10 on such checks, even while distracted or threatened.
♣
Next time, I'm going creepy again, with a bad template!Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-11-30 at 12:34 PM.
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2023-11-06, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
The last two bits are something I'd expect from an ooze rather than anything else, but I really love the concept that the party hears absolutely nothing, then gets ambushed by something 90% harmless and utterly terrified of them. I know to expect the party will kill the creeping horse and think nothing of it, but calming it down and getting help sounds really neat. Doubly so if the creeping horse is too scared to mention its leaving to avoid another encounter, and the party's first clue of danger is turning around to find the creeping horse has vanished without a trace.
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2023-11-07, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
This might be a good place to mention that I do, in fact, already have an Ooze thet kind of does this! (Kind of. It's using DEADLY ACID and is worse at creeping, but hey.)
but I really love the concept that the party hears absolutely nothing, then gets ambushed by something 90% harmless and utterly terrified of them. I know to expect the party will kill the creeping horse and think nothing of it, but calming it down and getting help sounds really neat.
Doubly so if the creeping horse is too scared to mention its leaving to avoid another encounter, and the party's first clue of danger is turning around to find the creeping horse has vanished without a trace.
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2023-11-13, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Remember that? It's coming up, right here:
Monkurt
Sample Monkurt: Wild Elven Monkurt (1st level Warrior Before the Transformation)
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: –
Full Attack: –
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: –
Special Qualities: Docile, elf traits, low-light vision, soulstripped
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will -5
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int –, Wis 1, Cha 1
Skills: Climb +3, Jump +1
Feats: –
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2–7)
Challenge Rating: 1/8
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: –
Level Adjustment: –
Combat
The monkurt does not fight. It will do its best to interpose itself between any attacker and its master, and it will follow basic instruction given by the latter, however.
Docile (Su)
See below.
Soulstripped (Ex)
See below.
Creating a Monkurt
"Monkurt" is an acquired template that can be applied to any corporeal humanoid. The procedure, although magical, requires no spellcasting. Monkurts are created from prisoners and slaves by wat of a ritual: the neck of a freshly sacrificed camel must be skinned, and the skin sewn tightly around the head of the base creature. The base creature is than placed in a hot, dry area under the open sky. About 85% of such subjects die. Those that survive, on the other hand, could as well be just as dead: as the skin wrapped around their skulls dries, it applies a pressure of some sort upon the head that forces the higher soul out of the body, rendering it a creature of no memories and no will of its own. Once the process is complete, it will recognize the creature that removes the skin as its master. If the skin is kept, it can be placed back upon the monkurt's head by its master; if another removes it afterwards, the ownership of the creature will be transferred to them. Should the skin be destroyed, it is impossible to transfer the ownership of the monkurt.
A monkurt uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: Size and type are unchanged.
Hit Dice: All current and future Hit Dice become d8s. Base attack bonus is equal to 3/4 times the number of Hit Dice.
Special Attacks: A nugal retains all the special attacks of the base creature not derived from class levels, with the exception of spells, spell-like abilities and psionics.
Special Qualities: A nugal retains all the special qualities of the base creature not derived from class levels, and gains those described below.
Docile (Su)
A monkurt's attitude towards its masters is always helpful and its attitude towards all others, indifferent. The only way to alter these attitudes is transfering a monkurt's ownership to another, whereupon it becomes helpful towards its new masters and indifferent towards the previous ones.
Soulstripped (Ex)
A monkurt is almost entirely soulless. It loses all recollection of its past as well as the ability to speak. It is immune to all mind-affecting spells and effects, as well as any spell or effect that directly manipulates the soul (such as trap the soul). It cannot be raised or resurrected.
Saves: Monkurts have one good save, Fortitude.
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Con +2. A monkurt does not have an Intelligence score. Its Wisdom and Charisma both drop to 1.
Skills: Monkurts retain all ranks in skills other than the following: Autohypnosis, Appraise, Bluff, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, Martial Lore, Psicraft, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device. They can use any Craft skill except Alchemy to create simple objects, the Forgery skill to copy documents, any Profession skill to perform simple duties that do not require speech or creativity, and any Perform skill that does not require speech or creativity.
Feats: Monkurts lose all feats other than Toughness.
Environment: Same as the base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature -3.
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: –
Level Adjustment: –
♣
On a lighter note, have a sack of spiky goo as well:
Uredo
Uredins are nasty waterdwelling predators that are most comfortable in stale, still bodies of water found in deep, dark places. These rotund, soft, translucent sacks of quivering, pale white matter covered in long, slender spikes are commonly described as the results of aboleth experiments, partly due to their resemblance to victims of the deep masters' slime, and partly due to their commonly reacting to the abolethic tongue as though they grasped its meaning. This theory has, nevertheless, been definitively disproven: while they were likely terrestrial and, perhaps, related to will-o'-wisps once, uredins are now understood to have migrated into their aquatic habitats spontaneously, and their relationship with aboleths is purely parasitic.
Uredins seem to understand Aboleth and Undercommon, but do not speak.
Size/Type: Small Aberration [Aquatic]
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 5 feet (1 squares), swim 20 feet
Armor Class: 13 ( +1 size, +2 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-3
Attack: Sting +6 melee (1d4-2 plus itch and disease)
Full Attack: 4 stings +6 melee (1d4-2 plus itch and disease)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease, itch
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60'
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +6 (+11 underwater), Spot +4, Swim +9
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any aquatic underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 5–7 (Small)
Level Adjustment: –
Combat
Uredins attack when hungry or bored, always from ambush. They try to sting as many opponents as possible before pulling back into the same dark water they lurked in before.
Amphibious (Ex)
Uredins can breathe air and water with equal ease.
Disease (Ex)
Long pocks – sting, Fortitude DC 15, incubation perios 1d4 days, damage 1 Dex and 1 Cha (or 1 Dex and 1d3 Cha for creatures of the Plant type). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Itch (Ex)
Each time an uredo stings a living creature, it injects a mildly corrosive substance into its body. Such a creature must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or take a -4 circumstance penalty on all Dexterity, Intelligence and Wisdom-based skill checks, as well as Concentration checks due to the intense irritation for 1d4 minutes. Any amount of acid resistence or immunity to acid negates this effect.
Skills
Uredins receive a +5 racial bonus on Hide checks when completely submerged in water. Furthermore, they have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. They can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. They can use the run action while swimming, provided they swim in a straight line.
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2023-11-13, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
These monkurts sound like jumping through a lot of hoops to get a zombie without the benefits of being undead.
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2023-11-13, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I was going for the creepiness factor, mostly, but they have a number of notable benefits:
–they are far more mobile;
–better in terms of utility, if worse for combat (skills are mostly retained, mind);
–easier on the eye;
–possible to create without access to spellcasting; and
–perhaps most importantly, they do not and cannot ever pose a direct threat of any sort to their master. An Evil jerkface born into a lot of money can have a small army of them, and nothing to fear for it, even if they are a joke of a 1st level Aristocrat.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-11-13 at 11:40 AM.
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2023-11-14, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- Hell itself (Ohio)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
I need to use the creeping horse somehow...some of my players need a good scaring.
Revised avatar by Trixie, New avvie by Crisis21!
Mah Fluffy Death Critters
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2023-11-15, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2023-11-20, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Double update once more, with a silly little digression and then more creeping creepyness. But, as said, first thing first: a thing I appreciate about the Half-OgreRoD/SS race and the Half-Ogrewherever it's from template is their complementing each other wonderfully in that combining them does, in fact, basically give an Ogre. That gave me an idea. Namely, "other half also Orc" – the Template:
Half-Orc
Half-orcs are born to orcs, and sometimes, to other orcs as well. They tend to have a strong build and a stronger jaw, with the thick hair and jutting teeth of their orcish ancestors.
Sample Half-Orc: Half-Orc Half-Orc (1st level Warrior)
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid [Orc]
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+7 half-plate armour), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Greatclub +4 melee (1d10+3)
Full Attack: Greatclub +4 melee (1d10+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: –
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will -1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Intimidate +3
Feats: Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0
Combat
The half-orc hits opponents with its greatclub.
Light Sensitivity (Ex)
See below.
Creating a Half-Orc
Half-orc is an inherited template that can be added to any Humanoid of Small to Large size.
A half-orc uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: Size and type are unchanged.
Special Qualities: A half-otc retains all the special qualities of the base creature, and gains the following.
Light Sensitivity (Ex)
Half-orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Abilities: Modify the base creature's abilities as follows: Str +2, Wis -2.
Environment: Same as the base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature.
Alignment: Any.
Advancement: Same as base creature.
Level Adjustment: +0
And the loveliest thing? This is incontestably just LA +0, brought to you by WotC!
♣
Creeping on, welcome yet another funny planty, the
Trumpet Creeper
Trumpet creepers are sizable shrubs, easily upwards of 35 feet tall, composed of thick, flexible, vinelike stems from which short, slender boughs bearing pinnate leaves and sturdy air roots branch off in abundance. If the summer heat is dry enough, they bloom, sprouting many a long orange-red flower, not unlike a trumpet in terms of shape (hence their name).
Trumpet creepers inhabit the valleys of waterways, anchoriung themselves onto anything that can hold their weight as they reach upwards, to the sun. They are generally pleased to stand and grow motionless for weeks at end, if not disturbed, but they are quick to detect herbivores and any being carrying gear, and chase these off, violently if need be. They have a particular dislike for elves, and the dismembered bodies of the long-eared humanoids littering a forest floor are telltale signs of a creeper's presence. Some are, due to these behaviours, led to believe they were engineered as protectors of their chosen haunts by Druids or some other streange magic, but creepers are dismissive of the notion at best.
Trumpet creepers might understand Elven and Sylvan, but do not speak. The sounds they do make are often said to be reminiscent of a shrieker's screams and some suggest they serve as a rudimentary communication.
Size/Type: Gargantuan Plant
Hit Dice: 14d8+56 (119 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 20 feet (4 squares), climb 20 feet
Armor Class: 29 ( -4 size, +9 Dex, +14 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+37
Attack: Root +21 melee (2d4+15)
Full Attack: 14 roots +21 melee (2d4+15)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Dismember, improved grab
Special Qualities: DR 10/adamantine and slashing, hold fast, low-light vision, plant traits, regeneration 12
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +8
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 29, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 15
Skills: Climb +26, Hide +4, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +4, Listen +8, Sense Motive +8, Spot +8, Survival +12, Swim +15
Feats: Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack
Environment: Warm forests and hills
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 14
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: 15–29 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: –
Combat
Trumpet creepers are lazy and slow, but highly territorial. They readily attack anything they perceive as a threat the moment it moves into range with a flurry of burrowing roots, targetting elves in preference to others. They will usually affix themselves to some stable support early in the battle and will usually move little, unless its opponents fly or primarily use ranged weapons in which case they retreat to among trees or submerge themsleves in water to draw these foes closer.
Dismember (Ex)
Whenever a trumpet creeper succesfully hits with a root attack, as a free action, its air root burrows into its foe or target, expanding suddenly. Damage from such attacks ignores up to 10 points of damage reduction or hardness. If at least four roots are succesfully working towards dismembering an opponent in any given round, the opponent must succeed on a DC 34 Fortitude save or have its fast healing, if any, suppressed for 1d4 hours or until a regenerate spell is cast on it. The save DCs are Strength-based.
Hold Fast (Ex)
A trumpet creeper is all but impossible to move against its will. Bull rush and trip attempts against it automatically fail as long as it has at least four free roots and a stable, heavy pobject such as a large rock or a building within its reach that it can cling onto, nor can a grappling opponent drag it along while moving. Inititaing this stable stance is a move action, as is retracting the roots used to maintain it.
Imroved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a trumpet creeper must hit with a root attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Regeneration (Ex)
Cold deals normal damage to a trumpet creeper. If a creeper loses any body part, the lost portion regrows in 2d4 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
Skills
Trumpet creepers have a +8 racial bonus to Climb checks amd can always take 10 on such checks, even while distracted or threatened.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-11-27 at 12:11 PM. Reason: CON damage pending, thanks for all the feedback!
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2023-11-25, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- Hell itself (Ohio)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Does the Half Orc gain the Orc Subtype?
Revised avatar by Trixie, New avvie by Crisis21!
Mah Fluffy Death Critters
Orcs and Goblins
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2023-11-26, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
This is the one single necessary thing in this template.
Excuse me, how many root attacks!? Each of them bypassing DR and with Improved Grab. It's a bit weird that it has no Constrict or other means of dealing damage from Improved Grab, especially since the roots are supposed to burrow inside the opponent. I would see dismember dealing 1d2 Con damage for each successful grappling check the Trumpet Creeper makes.
All in all, a really nice creature with some decent lore, visuals (having a big flower making shrieker sounds definitely catches the eyes and ears) and unique combat. I'm not sure why it has so much Charisma. I mean, sure it's territorial, but so are arrowhawks, and they have Cha 13. It's not like it has any SLAs or abilities depending on it either. Dexterity I can see at 29 mechanically, but I have some trouble imagining a gargantuan bush dodging cones of cold with no problem. Especially on a creature said to affix themselves and "move little" during combat. Such an absurd dexterity (that's the Dex or a Huge Air Elemental) definitely deserves at least a mention in the creature's lore.
What I'm sure of is that this looks much stronger than CR 10. 14 attacks with 40 Str is just ridiculous, especially with these saves, hard-to-bypass Regeneration and DR... I'd go upwards of CR 13.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-11-26 at 07:51 AM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2023-11-27, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
Of course not! That's in the other half of Orc. (Which means the example creature should have it. I'll put it in.)
This is probably the dumbest thing I ever brewed. So proud of it! (Just wait until I write up the Burning Man, though. Gonna be a Human, but on fire, with Environment: Warm deserts and Organization: Solitary, party (4–31) or festival (300–97000).)
Excuse me, how many root attacks!? Each of them bypassing DR and with Improved Grab. It's a bit weird that it has no Constrict or other means of dealing damage from Improved Grab, especially since the roots are supposed to burrow inside the opponent.
I would see dismember dealing 1d2 Con damage for each successful grappling check the Trumpet Creeper makes.
All in all, a really nice creature with some decent lore,
visuals (having a big flower making shrieker sounds definitely catches the eyes and ears)
[Shrieking from the distance.]
PC Murderhobo Hearing an Encounter: Hey, what's that?
NPC Elven Guide: [Tenses up.] We go the other way.
PC Paladin: What? Someone's screaming, they might…
NPC Elven Guide: We. GO. The. OTHER. Way.
and it was funny to me. Plus, Shriekers. Shriekers make everything better!
and unique combat. I'm not sure why it has so much Charisma. I mean, sure it's territorial, but so are arrowhawks, and they have Cha 13. It's not like it has any SLAs or abilities depending on it either.
Dexterity I can see at 29 mechanically, but I have some trouble imagining a gargantuan bush dodging cones of cold with no problem. Especially on a creature said to affix themselves and "move little" during combat. Such an absurd dexterity (that's the Dex or a Huge Air Elemental) definitely deserves at least a mention in the creature's lore.
What I'm sure of is that this looks much stronger than CR 10. 14 attacks with 40 Str is just ridiculous, especially with these saves, hard-to-bypass Regeneration and DR... I'd go upwards of CR 13.
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2023-11-27, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Songbird race! (And other stuff.)
It should be noted that Constrict is not necessary for a creature with Improved Grab to dish out damage:
Originally Posted by SRD