Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

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Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game

As an aside, why the hell did WOTC think that Infect was better than Wither? I am surprised by the shear number of infect-support cards that Atraxa deck is able to pull out regularly, which seems really odd for how unfun it is to play against. Wither, on the other hand, just makes me reconsider how I treat midgame combat. In the last game, he didn't even have to hit me; simply having a specific creature on the board and summoning another creature with infect was enough to put an infect counter on a player.

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It's a pet mechanic of Mark Rosewater.

My Atraxa is my favorite deck to play, period, but it has no infect at all. It does have combos, and planeswalkers of course.

Yawgmoth is my infect deck, and one of my "fun is a zero-sum game" decks. I have a range of competitiveness among my decks though, so a few are "try to win as quickly as possible" a few are "beer and pretzels" style, and a few in-between.

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Originally Posted by Fable Wright

The problem is that Commander didn't decide to go up to 20 poison counters to kill. That's honestly all there is to it. In no situation should Scion of the Ur-Dragon be able to one-hit-kill someone with Skithiryx and fire-breathing without getting an absurd amount of mana.

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If a 5 mana commander without haste comes onto the table, you get to swing it at someone, you activate a 2 mana ability, and you use another card on it... Honestly "a player dies through combat damage" doesn't sound like the most unrealistic outcome from that. I could come up with plenty of one card combos that kill people at those cmc values if need be.

The only times I've ever had problems with infect is in decks like Saskia the Unyielding where you can get infected without being able to interact with it. Infect creatures are inefficient by nature and usually are easy to remove. 20 infect counters really just kills infect's ability to pressure players and effectively remove it as a mechanic.

Play some removal and early blockers and this isn't a problem. If you play decks that have an ideal curve of Rampant Growth into Harmonize into Zendikar Resurgent you absolutely deserve to die to infect.

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

If a 5 mana commander without haste comes onto the table, you get to swing it at someone, you activate a 2 mana ability, and you use another card on it... Honestly "a player dies through combat damage" doesn't sound like the most unrealistic outcome from that. I could come up with plenty of one card combos that kill people at those cmc values if need be.

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It's more "Flash Scion in at opponent's EoT, then pay 4 mana and delete a player from the game" that's the issue. But no, you're right, a double striking dragon would almost as easily kill through Commander Damage.

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Originally Posted by Fable Wright

It's more "Flash Scion in at opponent's EoT, then pay 4 mana and delete a player from the game" that's the issue. But no, you're right, a double striking dragon would almost as easily kill through Commander Damage.

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Sure, but any way I can think of to give flash to a creature is going to be on-board as a permanent that you can interact with, and if your opponent passes with wubrg up and a flash effect in play you have to assume that they'll at least spend their mana on their commander.

It's also not "then pay 4 mana." You spend 2 to make it skittles, and then you have to find a way to give it +6 power. Your specific example was fire breathing, which would require six red pips for a total of eight mana. 13 mana over two turns with a flash effect is entirely reasonable IMO since this effect only kills one player and is currently stopped by any way to interact with a flying attacker dealing combat damage. There's obviously other cards that would require less mana, but the point is still that this scenario requires ~10 mana over two turns with multiple card effects in play (skittles in deck, flash effect in play, pump available).

Here's some trivia that may or may not be useful:

Leeches is legal in Commander.

EDIT: I know Golgari Death-Swarm is a joke card, but a (hypothetical) effective-reprint of it with the name "Serra Watcher" and the typeline "Creature - Demon Hydra" would be really cool. Maybe some flavor-text about how while one head is devouring an intruder (to this alternate version of Serra's realm) the rest are already searching for its next meal.

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

Sure, but any way I can think of to give flash to a creature is going to be on-board as a permanent that you can interact with, and if your opponent passes with wubrg up and a flash effect in play you have to assume that they'll at least spend their mana on their commander.

It's also not "then pay 4 mana." You spend 2 to make it skittles, and then you have to find a way to give it +6 power. Your specific example was fire breathing, which would require six red pips for a total of eight mana. 13 mana over two turns with a flash effect is entirely reasonable IMO since this effect only kills one player and is currently stopped by any way to interact with a flying attacker dealing combat damage. There's obviously other cards that would require less mana, but the point is still that this scenario requires ~10 mana over two turns with multiple card effects in play (skittles in deck, flash effect in play, pump available).

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It is 'pay 4 mana and 12 life', you're correct. The combo endemic to Scion of the Ur-Dragon decks has been to get Scion in play; pay 2 to put the transformation to Skittles on the stack; and then 2 to put the transformation to Moltensteel Dragon on the stack. Moltensteel resolves, you pay 12 life for +6/+0 with the Skittles transformation still on the stack, then let the Skittles transformation resolve, giving you a 10/4 flying Infect dragon for a total of 4 mana.

The scenario requires 9 mana over two turns (so, you know, can be pulled off turn 4/turn 5 with even a bit of ramp) and one permanent in play, to make someone instantly lose the game. Again, granted, you could turn Scion into Dragon Tyrant with Phyrexian Firebreathing and 10 life with the same strategy to instantly kill a player with Commander damage.

Both these are unfun to play against because the instant-kill comes at Instant speed during the combat step. It's a 4/4 Scion swinging at you. If you cast a kill spell, it could turn into a Shroud dragon, or Yosei to lock someone out for a turn. If you chump block it, could make it Dragon Tyrant for that trample/double strike, or Hellkite Overlord to steal all your artifacts, or O-Kagachi to exile something, or Wasitora for forcing a sacrifice.

At this point we're playing schrodinger's deck. A deck capable of doing that should be a deck that you're playing at a particular kind of table where these shenanigans keep you apace with the rest of that table. You shouldn't bring Bear Force One to a table with a Zur, this deck, or another good example in the same power range for instance. If you aren't a fan of these styles, don't play in that pod, but instead at a pod that's more to your preferred style.

Commander's a difficult format to discuss because of this. Realistically it's almost like 5 or six formats with one ruleset, but everybody has their own ban list for it and we just call it all Commander.

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

At this point we're playing schrodinger's deck. A deck capable of doing that should be a deck that you're playing at a particular kind of table where these shenanigans keep you apace with the rest of that table. You shouldn't bring Bear Force One to a table with a Zur, this deck, or another good example in the same power range for instance. If you aren't a fan of these styles, don't play in that pod, but instead at a pod that's more to your preferred style.

Commander's a difficult format to discuss because of this. Realistically it's almost like 5 or six formats with one ruleset, but everybody has their own ban list for it and we just call it all Commander.

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If it were up to me, all I'd be playing is Conspiracy drafts or Monarch games all day e'rrday.

But sometimes you gotta make lemonade, you know? My hope is that I'll just grind them into dust enough to understand what I mean that playing at a lower level is fun. Until then, onto the thrashing!

I'm totally banking on the fact that his Atraxa deck has too much focused on Infect to have enough control to deal with me (all I've seen so far in his deck for control are low-level counters) and I know my wife doesn't put much faith in control effects (her green deck has like Krosan Grip and one other Enchantment/Artifact destruction card).

So the strategy is for Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife to stall long enough until I manage to tutor up one of the 10 ways I can win by decking myself. I have like 3 different ways to copy an enchantment on the board that are all 3 cost, so I'm not too worried about losing one of my two immortality combo cards. And if decking myself fails somehow, pillowfort up and use stuff like Epherian Armor to just kill them with a flying commander.

Yeah, it's rude, but losing has lost its appeal for the time being.

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Originally Posted by Fable Wright

It is 'pay 4 mana and 12 life', you're correct. The combo endemic to Scion of the Ur-Dragon decks has been to get Scion in play; pay 2 to put the transformation to Skittles on the stack; and then 2 to put the transformation to Moltensteel Dragon on the stack. Moltensteel resolves, you pay 12 life for +6/+0 with the Skittles transformation still on the stack, then let the Skittles transformation resolve, giving you a 10/4 flying Infect dragon for a total of 4 mana.

The scenario requires 9 mana over two turns (so, you know, can be pulled off turn 4/turn 5 with even a bit of ramp) and one permanent in play, to make someone instantly lose the game. Again, granted, you could turn Scion into Dragon Tyrant with Phyrexian Firebreathing and 10 life with the same strategy to instantly kill a player with Commander damage.

Both these are unfun to play against because the instant-kill comes at Instant speed during the combat step. It's a 4/4 Scion swinging at you. If you cast a kill spell, it could turn into a Shroud dragon, or Yosei to lock someone out for a turn. If you chump block it, could make it Dragon Tyrant for that trample/double strike, or Hellkite Overlord to steal all your artifacts, or O-Kagachi to exile something, or Wasitora for forcing a sacrifice.

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I don't know if "stopped by fog" combos are really that bad, but if this is it is because of Scion not infect. You even state that it kills without skittles, so it seems to me that it is turning into a bunch of things a turn that is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

I don't know if "stopped by fog" combos are really that bad, but if this is it is because of Scion not infect. You even state that it kills without skittles, so it seems to me that it is turning into a bunch of things a turn that is the problem.

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Yes. Skittles has been my primary experience with Infect as a frustrating mechanic due to a friend using it to kill with Scion very regularly. I realized here that I was arguing on incorrect bases and acknowledging that:

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

If a 5 mana commander without haste comes onto the table, you get to swing it at someone, you activate a 2 mana ability, and you use another card on it... Honestly "a player dies through combat damage" doesn't sound like the most unrealistic outcome from that. I could come up with plenty of one card combos that kill people at those cmc values if need be.

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Originally Posted by Fable Wright

It's more "Flash Scion in at opponent's EoT, then pay 4 mana and delete a player from the game" that's the issue. But no, you're right, a double striking dragon would almost as easily kill through Commander Damage.

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I used a poor example, acknowledged that, and was going to drop it, but Techwarrior misrepresented how the combo worked, and I wished to clarify both (1) why I specified 4 mana for a kill and (2) why this is more frustrating to deal with than a generic flying commander (because all the Scion decks I've seen are extremely resilient in resolving their combos).

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Originally Posted by Fable Wright

Yes. Skittles has been my primary experience with Infect as a frustrating mechanic due to a friend using it to kill with Scion very regularly. I realized here that I was arguing on incorrect bases and acknowledging that:





I used a poor example, acknowledged that, and was going to drop it, but Techwarrior misrepresented how the combo worked, and I wished to clarify both (1) why I specified 4 mana for a kill and (2) why this is more frustrating to deal with than a generic flying commander (because all the Scion decks I've seen are extremely resilient in resolving their combos).

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Yeah I think that combo would be unfun for me as well.

Fynn the Fangbearer too. He' s so not fun to play against. "Oh boy your low to the ground creatures with deathtouch have to be blocked or I lose."

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Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

Yeah I think that combo would be unfun for me as well.

Fynn the Fangbearer too. He' s so not fun to play against. "Oh boy your low to the ground creatures with deathtouch have to be blocked or I lose."

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Having had to sell my collection some years ago I am slowly rebuilding.

That said building Fynn was cheap. Turns out it was cheap in more ways than one.
I still have it for now because we drag it out to play it for the memes but it's on our soft ban list with Sram and Baral.

Infect is like that.

So, looking at Innistrad: Crimson Vow sneak peaks, it looks like Sorin Markov and Olivia Voldaren are getting married.

I, for one, wish those crazy kids the best, and I'm glad that Sorin is finally recovering from the emotional toll of the tragic loss of his daughter.

Also, there is a woman with a moon motif on the Midnight Hunt collector booster box, and despite the fact that, with Avacyn gone, "just the moon" is one of the top three religions on Innistrad and the set is literally about werewolves, you can't convince me that it isn't Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by Personification

So, looking at Innistrad: Crimson Vow sneak peaks, it looks like Sorin Markov and Olivia Voldaren are getting married.

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Is this from the collector booster art work? I thought that looked more like Edgar Markov than Sorin.

It looks like Sorin to me, and I think that they confirmed it depicted him. That still doesn't mean that he's the groom, but saying as he is on the boxes and there is a piece of art depicting what appears to be a very nice wedding invitation with an M overlayed with a V it seems likely.

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Originally Posted by enderlord99

My opponent just tried to exile-mill me with Ulamog, and they did indeed exile basically my entire library, including my single copy of Ormos, Archive Keeper...

...after I had already Ult-ed the Kaldheim version of Kaya. Twice.

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I still consider this my funniest victory so far.

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Originally Posted by Personification

there is a piece of art depicting what appears to be a very nice wedding invitation with an M overlayed with a V it seems likely.

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I’ll give the booster key art being Sorin does tip things in his favour (especially with the set booster being Olivia), but I don’t think this art favours either of us as Sorin and Edgar share a surname.

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Originally Posted by Androgeus

I’ll give the booster key art being Sorin does tip things in his favour (especially with the set booster being Olivia), but I don’t think this art favours either of us as Sorin and Edgar share a surname.

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That bit was just the point that a Markov is getting married and not, say, a Stromkirk.

I'm going to have to order about a dozen of the new black removal spell. It's easily the best one that's been printed since Fatal Push.

Spoiler: Infernal Grasp

Show

1B
Instant
Destroy target creature. You lose 2 life.

You'll absolutely need to be careful of the card's drawback, but putting a little life gain in your deck isn't a bad thing anyway in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

You'll absolutely need to be careful of the card's drawback, but putting a little life gain in your deck isn't a bad thing anyway in most cases.

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Pfft I've been play Aftershock for years, 2 life is nothing.

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Originally Posted by Androgeus

Pfft I've been play Aftershock for years, 2 life is nothing.

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:smalleek: But...........
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... WHY?!:smalleek:

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Originally Posted by Personification

:smalleek: But...........
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... WHY?!:smalleek:

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Because destroy target creature is pretty good in mono red?

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Originally Posted by Androgeus

Because destroy target creature is pretty good in mono red?

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Might I suggest using burn spells (Roast), Chaos Warp, or a splash color? 4 mana sorcery and bolting yourself for that is rough.

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

Might I suggest using burn spells (Roast), Chaos Warp, or a splash color? 4 mana sorcery and bolting yourself for that is rough.

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The advantage of that 4 mana spell is its polyvalence: it destroys either a terrain or a creature or an artifact.
The total mana and health cost means it will not be used much outside of pauper especially since it is not allowed in modern.

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Originally Posted by Techwarrior

Might I suggest using burn spells (Roast), Chaos Warp, or a splash color? 4 mana sorcery and bolting yourself for that is rough.

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It’s Norin commander deck. Just being able to kill a creature is nice. With 40 life, bolting oneself is not a big issue. (I obviously already run chaos warp)

I just did something nice for an opponent (specifically, I ramped them by targeting their Cascading Cataracts with my Field of Ruin (though I only did so because I needed to fix a color and they had no other nonbasics to target)) and then said "nice" because I wanted them to thank me. They said "oops" instead, which seems really rude TBH. I mean, they might have thought I'd made a legitimate mistake, but the fact that "thanks!" was available when they opened the emote-menu should have clued them in.

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Originally Posted by enderlord99

I said "nice" because I wanted them to thank me.

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Your opponent is under no obligation to thank you for anything.

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Originally Posted by Spore

Your opponent is under no obligation to thank you for anything.

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Where did I imply that it was an "obligation"?

The rude part wasn't "not saying 'thanks'"; it was "saying 'oops' aggressively" and I'm not even particularly mad about it; I just wanted to tell a funny (and true) story.

In the EDH format, what is the best answer, strategy or Commander against fast aggro deck? :smallconfused: