What Would Happen If The D&D Dragon Deities Pantheon Were In DC Or Marvel Universe?

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Originally Posted by Peelee

D&D gods can talk to humans just as easily as D&D humans can talk to chickens. Are all D&D humans Evil? All beings at all that survive on food other than magically created, for that matter?

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The goodberry diet avoids this issue, and I lost 27 pounds! :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Eldan

In which case, Xykon's position of "I will kill everyone if I have to, just to live forever", is clearly the only justified position, then :smalltongue:

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His survival instinct seems to be intact.

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

I'm sorry but none of it makes no sense at all

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Correct.

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Originally Posted by Razade

There is no "D&D" Afterlife. It's different per setting. The afterlife of Atas and Faerun are different. The afterlife in OotS isn' "The D&D afterlife". It's Rich's afterlife.

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Doubly correct. :smallsmile:

Bahamut's 2 other good siblings Tamara and Hlal will join forces with Bahamut in th DC Universe. While Tiamat's 2 other evil siblings Faluzure and Garyx maybe might just forces with Tiamat but backstab each other in the DC Universe and got their separate ways to wage war against the DC heroes and villains for the sake of evil dragonkind.

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

Bahamut's 2 other good siblings Tamara and Hlal will join forces with Bahamut in th DC Universe. While Tiamat's 2 other evil siblings Faluzure and Garyx maybe might just forces with Tiamat but backstab each other in the DC Universe and got their separate ways to wage war against the DC heroes and villains for the sake of evil dragonkind.

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Are assuming that an array of other D&D dragons make the trip into the DCU? Otherwise I'm thinking there could be an interesting primary plot arc where the 9 try to return home, but along the way interact with the other DCU characters and intrigues.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

Are assuming that an array of other D&D dragons make the trip into the DCU? Otherwise I'm thinking there could be an interesting primary plot arc where the 9 try to return home, but along the way interact with the other DCU characters and intrigues.

- M

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Yes. That's what I'm saying including the Neutral Dragon Deities. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

Yes. That's what I'm saying including the Neutral Dragon Deities. :smile:

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I meant do only the 9 you named move into DCU, or do other, non-divine, dragons move over as well?

Absent their worshippers, unfamiliar territory, going to be a lot of drive to return.

If some "regular" dragons come along there will certainly be moves by many "alignments" to establish themselves in the world, and the divine dragons will have interesting reactions/plans along this line, I would think.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

I meant do only the 9 you named move into DCU, or do other, non-divine, dragons move over as well?

Absent their worshippers, unfamiliar territory, going to be a lot of drive to return.

If some "regular" dragons come along there will certainly be moves by many "alignments" to establish themselves in the world, and the divine dragons will have interesting reactions/plans along this line, I would think.

- M

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Ok, I research this and this is the 9 non divine dragon I can think of:

Aleithilitas-Amethyst Dragon
Hrodel-Crystal Dragon
Charisma-Sappire Dragon
Tithomas-Topaz Dragon
Smarged-Emerald Dragon
Seradess-Obsidian Dragon
Alglaudyx- Black Dragon (Dragonlich)
Baratahlaer-Brass Dragon
Adalon Silver Dragon

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

Ok, I research this and this is the 9 non divine dragon I can think of:

Aleithilitas-Amethyst Dragon
Hrodel-Crystal Dragon
Charisma-Sappire Dragon
Tithomas-Topaz Dragon
Smarged-Emerald Dragon
Seradess-Obsidian Dragon
Alglaudyx- Black Dragon (Dragonlich)
Baratahlaer-Brass Dragon
Adalon Silver Dragon

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I appreciate the effort, but not what I meant either. I meant just standard, regular old dragons that come from whatever world...to use OotS example, Calder. If, say 50 mixed chromatic dragons (some black, some red, some green, some white, some blue) and 50 metallics (you get the idea) and maybe a mix of gem dragons, etc, were also transported into the DCU I think the story would be hugely different than if it is just the 9 original (or these other 9 you named).

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

I appreciate the effort, but not what I meant either. I meant just standard, regular old dragons that come from whatever world...to use OotS example, Calder. If, say 50 mixed chromatic dragons (some black, some red, some green, some white, some blue) and 50 metallics (you get the idea) and maybe a mix of gem dragons, etc, were also transported into the DCU I think the story would be hugely different than if it is just the 9 original (or these other 9 you named).

- M

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50 mixed dragons?! That's a lot of dragons but I see what you mean. :eek: :smile:

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

50 mixed dragons?! That's a lot of dragons but I see what you mean. :eek: :smile:

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Call it one clutch of each color, and drop it to 50 total - 25 chromatic, 25 metallic. One adult, 2 juveniles, 2 hatchlings.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

Call it one clutch of each color, and drop it to 50 total - 25 chromatic, 25 metallic. One adult, 2 juveniles, 2 hatchlings.

- M

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Anglarhammaroth-Male Adult Black Dragon
Ferazath-Male Juvenile Black Dragon
Jharakkan-Female Juvenile Black Dragon
Wastirek-Male Hatchling Black Dragon
Skurge-Female Hatchling Black Dragon
Esaedra-Female Adult Blue Dragon
Iryklathagre-Female Juvenile Blue Dragon
Morueme-Male Juvenile Blue Dragon
Ideizraele-Female Hatchling Blue Dragon
Gerinvloch-Male Hatchling Blue Dragon
Andareunarthex-Male Adult Green Dragon
Eldrisithein-Male Juvenile Green Dragon
Chathuuladroth-Female Juvenile Dragon
Ishenalyr-Male Hatchling Green Dragon
Chloris-Female Hatchling Green Dragon
Halagaster-Female Adult Red Dragon
Guyanothaz-Male Juvenile Red Dragon
Aconflagblazen-Female Juvenile Red Dragon
Heltipyre-Female Hatchling Red Dragon
Troberdene-Male Hatchling Red Dragon
Auroxas-Male Adult White Dragon
Cryovain-Male Juvenile White Dragon
Tyra-Female Juvenile White Dragon
Gkycamerax-Male Hatchling White Dragon
Augaurath-Female Hatchling White Dragon
Topher-Male Adult Brass Dragon
Girax-Male Juvenile Brass Dragon
Janic-Female Juvenile Brass Dragon
Brass Polis-Male Hatchling Brass Dragon
Narbdy-Female Hatchling Brass Dragon
Aaronera-Male Adult Copper Dragon
Chatulio-Male Juvenile Copper Dragon
Gracy Cooper-Female Juvenile Copper Dragon
Sivert-Male Hatchling Copper Dragon
Chellews-Female Hatchling Copper Dragon
Haverian-Female Adult Gold Dragon
Shattershree-Female Juvenile Gold Dragon
Aurus-Male Hatchling Gold Dragon
Izzerazz-Female Hatchling Gold Dragon
Aurinox-Male Juvenile Gold Dragon
Ahzaq-Male Adult Silver Dragon
Clarion-Male Juvenile Silver Dragon
Adalon-Female Juvenile Silver Dragon
Angalender-Male Hatchling Silver Dragon
Agrelia-Female Hatchling Silver Dragon

Pretty sure that as long as Io exist absolutely nothing OVERT will happen. Most of them don't really care for mortals like other deities, and its a known fact that several of them, in particular Bahamut and Tiamat, do other things on other planes as a differently named deity and as such would generally not care either. If Paladine/Bahamut is still barred from the material realm, why would Tiamat/Takhisis suddenly be allowed to? To add to it, Fizban/Paladine/Bahamut has according to lore, at bare minimum been introduced to our Earth, so its a high mark that he knows about supers, which would mean at some point Tiamat would too. But even if its a new universe, its still the material plane and those two in particular have some penalties associated with being on it...

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Originally Posted by HolyDraconus

Pretty sure that as long as Io exist absolutely nothing OVERT will happen. Most of them don't really care for mortals like other deities, and its a known fact that several of them, in particular Bahamut and Tiamat, do other things on other planes as a differently named deity and as such would generally not care either. If Paladine/Bahamut is still barred from the material realm, why would Tiamat/Takhisis suddenly be allowed to? To add to it, Fizban/Paladine/Bahamut has according to lore, at bare minimum been introduced to our Earth, so its a high mark that he knows about supers, which would mean at some point Tiamat would too. But even if its a new universe, its still the material plane and those two in particular have some penalties associated with being on it...

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Excellent point. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Peelee

My chickens said the same thing about people.

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Well, if we're allowing OOTS stuff, then I'm sure humans (and dwarves) would say the same thing about vampires. We even have a quote from the author comparing Malack's plan to mass-slaughter humans with humans factory-farming cows.

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Originally Posted by 137beth

Well, if we're allowing OOTS stuff, then I'm sure humans (and dwarves) would say the same thing about vampires.

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No they can't. Humans (and dwarves) and vampires are roughly the same, as far as cognitive functions go.

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Originally Posted by 137beth

We even have a quote from the author comparing Malack's plan to mass-slaughter humans with humans factory-farming cows.

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Mechanically, yes. Irrelevant to the "beings on different levels of sapience" issue, where that same author has compared humans:gods to dust mites:humans.

Also, said author is a vegetarian, and thus if he feels that way then he is ethically consistent!

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Originally Posted by 137beth

Well, if we're allowing OOTS stuff, then I'm sure humans (and dwarves) would say the same thing about vampires. We even have a quote from the author comparing Malack's plan to mass-slaughter humans with humans factory-farming cows.

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Meanwhile, I'm a FLOWER. Vegetarians grandstanding on their alleged moral high ground may go <HEAVILY CENSORED AND REDACTED>. (Peelee gets a pass for defending them, though. He brought BIRDIES into the discussion.)

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Originally Posted by Metastachydium

Peelee gets a pass for defending them, though.

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Hooray!

not a vegetarian. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Peelee

not a vegetarian. :smalltongue:

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(I'm aware (I read Random Banter every once in a while). Hence the addition of defending them.)

I feel like that other D&D Dragon Deities will have their time to shine in the DC Universe. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

I feel like that other D&D Dragon Deities will have their time to shine in the DC Universe. :smile:

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That comes down to which setting. Dnd as a whole has the Greek pantheon in it, so those guys and gals would literally not notice a difference. Greyhawk might do something but that’s because waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy back in the day most of them were cribbed from previous pantheons or mythology as is. Dragonlance will follow Forgotten Realms; since Paladine and Takhisis were two of the main driving forces of the pantheon. I’m like, 80% sure that the gods of Athas are permanently dead on that plane. Eberron is weird tho. Tiamat is flat out called the daughter of one of the Big Three that shaped the plane, while she herself is a greater deity on multiple planes already. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s another Mystyrl thing. I’m fairly certain that starjammer shenanigans can iron out that lore though.

The big take away though with DC is that the liches of dnd would have a general field day. Acerarak already bodies most of DC’s heavy hitters, where few have the tools to deal with him, and Vecna, being a literal god on top of being a lich, would run roughshod over nearly all of them. Not to say they can’t lose: Dr. Fate should be able to at bare minimum stalemate Acerarak ( but considering big A’s general mission thru the multiverse Fate might not even bother) and Vecna has…. Quirks… that make planar domination a non factor. No, the liches that would have a field day would be the dracoliches. DC doesn’t have spellfire so they can’t cheese fighting them.

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Originally Posted by HolyDraconus

That comes down to which setting. Dnd as a whole has the Greek pantheon in it, so those guys and gals would literally not notice a difference. Greyhawk might do something but that’s because waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy back in the day most of them were cribbed from previous pantheons or mythology as is. Dragonlance will follow Forgotten Realms; since Paladine and Takhisis were two of the main driving forces of the pantheon. I’m like, 80% sure that the gods of Athas are permanently dead on that plane. Eberron is weird tho. Tiamat is flat out called the daughter of one of the Big Three that shaped the plane, while she herself is a greater deity on multiple planes already. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s another Mystyrl thing. I’m fairly certain that starjammer shenanigans can iron out that lore though.

The big take away though with DC is that the liches of dnd would have a general field day. Acerarak already bodies most of DC’s heavy hitters, where few have the tools to deal with him, and Vecna, being a literal god on top of being a lich, would run roughshod over nearly all of them. Not to say they can’t lose: Dr. Fate should be able to at bare minimum stalemate Acerarak ( but considering big A’s general mission thru the multiverse Fate might not even bother) and Vecna has…. Quirks… that make planar domination a non factor. No, the liches that would have a field day would be the dracoliches. DC doesn’t have spellfire so they can’t cheese fighting them.

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But DC does have the Flash. And ways to find things like phylacteries. And ways to put them all in the core of a sun.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

But DC does have the Flash. And ways to find things like phylacteries. And ways to put them all in the core of a sun.

- M

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Flash hasn't proven he can survive in the sun, or in a black hole, or able to search true infinite space. All of which are places that older liches (3.5 and older) are prone to hide them. And considering some of these liches are strong enough to hide their weakpoint from literal GODS, Flash isn't finding all of them. Besides which, spellfire was the only sure fire way of killing the dracoliches with little issue, and it specifically does not exist in DC ( unless they somehow ported over Elminster, which isn't what we were talking about).

And that's not even directly attempting to counter Flash, that's just general lich info. On such, they (DC) has no way of destroying Vecna. Vecna doesn't even have a phylactery. But V doesn't really DO world domination or such nonsense. Usually (since ascension anyway) V has been just amassing nukes and secrets.... a cold war USA/USSR if that's ok to post.

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Originally Posted by HolyDraconus

Flash hasn't proven he can survive in the sun, or in a black hole, or able to search true infinite space. All of which are places that older liches (3.5 and older) are prone to hide them. And considering some of these liches are strong enough to hide their weakpoint from literal GODS, Flash isn't finding all of them. Besides which, spellfire was the only sure fire way of killing the dracoliches with little issue, and it specifically does not exist in DC ( unless they somehow ported over Elminster, which isn't what we were talking about).

And that's not even directly attempting to counter Flash, that's just general lich info. On such, they (DC) has no way of destroying Vecna. Vecna doesn't even have a phylactery. But V doesn't really DO world domination or such nonsense. Usually (since ascension anyway) V has been just amassing nukes and secrets.... a cold war USA/USSR if that's ok to post.

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Flash doesn't need to do everything...he was just a handy example. He is the immediate solution to a lot of problems, allowing time to handle the longer game. Yes, he is utterly OP when run as a broken character...but that's okay for this kind of situation. Don't even have to kill the Lich...just keep dropping them out of the speedforce a couple million years earlier into space. Sure, some will find their way back to the current timeline, but by then maybe some of the reality warpers can get involved and create clever extradimensional prisons, or time loops, or any of an array of similar solutions. Not as sure about DC, but Marvel has characters with such advanced (some delicate, others not) mind powers that they could ferret out any secret...that could even be deployed to find some of those hidden phylacteries. And depending on what kind of notice they had before they were moved into DC universe, they might still be back home...in which case dropping them into the sun isn't a bad solution even if it just returns the problem to its original home.

Sure, it'd be a cool kind of Doomsday evolution scenario where we'd end up with only the fittest (cleverest, most powerful, luckiest) liches that continue to escape...

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

Flash doesn't need to do everything...he was just a handy example. He is the immediate solution to a lot of problems, allowing time to handle the longer game. Yes, he is utterly OP when run as a broken character...but that's okay for this kind of situation. Don't even have to kill the Lich...just keep dropping them out of the speedforce a couple million years earlier into space. Sure, some will find their way back to the current timeline, but by then maybe some of the reality warpers can get involved and create clever extradimensional prisons, or time loops, or any of an array of similar solutions. Not as sure about DC, but Marvel has characters with such advanced (some delicate, others not) mind powers that they could ferret out any secret...that could even be deployed to find some of those hidden phylacteries. And depending on what kind of notice they had before they were moved into DC universe, they might still be back home...in which case dropping them into the sun isn't a bad solution even if it just returns the problem to its original home.

Sure, it'd be a cool kind of Doomsday evolution scenario where we'd end up with only the fittest (cleverest, most powerful, luckiest) liches that continue to escape...

- M

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Liches, being undead, are on a whole either highly resistant or flat out immune to mind magic, depending on which edition you choose. Nearly all of them are immune to their stats being lowered, so Flash can't drain their speed, Gate is a common wizard spell so they aren't going to be trapped anywhere, and some of the older edition liches can kill creatures by literally just standing next to them due to their aura. Time Stop USED to be a 10th level spell in older editions and allowed for a lot more than what the current ones allow and thats just some of the things off the top of my head. Thats why I said they would have a field day in DC, outside of select few people not a whole lot DC has can stop them. Hell, using Acererak's weakest showing from 5e shows that he has prepared Time Stop, Mind Blank, Power Word Kill and Plane Shift, and that fight with him is AFTER he was plane jaunting around and picked a fight with a god and bailed cause his pet project was being screwed with by the player characters.


Liches tossed into DC is above most supers pay grade. If they are old enough (IE drawing up spells from 3e or worse 2e since 2e epic is leagues above 3e) nothing short of gods can actually harm them. And in a lot of cases, not even those. Its why I mentioned Dracoliches: they generally don't do anywhere near as much spellcasting, and most can be called brutes.

There's no need to kill Doomsday if you can literally send his mind to permanently wander the material realm or just turn him into a rock and make a house out of him.

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Originally Posted by HolyDraconus

Liches, being undead, are on a whole either highly resistant or flat out immune to mind magic, depending on which edition you choose. Nearly all of them are immune to their stats being lowered, so Flash can't drain their speed, Gate is a common wizard spell so they aren't going to be trapped anywhere, and some of the older edition liches can kill creatures by literally just standing next to them due to their aura. Time Stop USED to be a 10th level spell in older editions and allowed for a lot more than what the current ones allow and thats just some of the things off the top of my head. Thats why I said they would have a field day in DC, outside of select few people not a whole lot DC has can stop them. Hell, using Acererak's weakest showing from 5e shows that he has prepared Time Stop, Mind Blank, Power Word Kill and Plane Shift, and that fight with him is AFTER he was plane jaunting around and picked a fight with a god and bailed cause his pet project was being screwed with by the player characters.

Liches tossed into DC is above most supers pay grade. If they are old enough (IE drawing up spells from 3e or worse 2e since 2e epic is leagues above 3e) nothing short of gods can actually harm them. And in a lot of cases, not even those. Its why I mentioned Dracoliches: they generally don't do anywhere near as much spellcasting, and most can be called brutes.

There's no need to kill Doomsday if you can literally send his mind to permanently wander the material realm or just turn him into a rock and make a house out of him.

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Preamble: Agree that they are well above the paygrade/powerscale of most heroes, and even most versions of heroes pre-mid- to late-80s. However, most of these liches would be trivial matters for the exceptional heroes. If well prepared, the liches stand a much improved chance, but still mostly come up short IMO. If well prepared, the heroes handle almost all of them nearly trivially.

You're using D&D universe rules, though. This is the other way around...the liches are playing in the DC universe. Liches are immune to mind-altering effects of D&D magic...something that is very different and arguably more flexible *and* limited than 4-color superhero powers. Imagine a class in D&D that could *only* read minds and influence thoughts. Imagine how much more potent that ability would have to be than a handful of spells that allow similar actions while also providing transformation, evocation, conjuration, etc etc magics. Martian Manhunter isn't using some 2nd level spell, nor is Max Lord or Grodd. These three, while exceptional, bring a level of mind power to the table that is beyond anything contemplated by D&D.

Flash doesn't need to drain speed to impact Liches. He can go straight-forward physical with an infinite-mass punch, timestream by running the lich back to the Precambrian and drop them in a super volcano (or even just into a regular volcano without changing time zones) before the lich can process what has happened.

Does Gate allow time shifting? I agree, certainly, that trapping them traditionally will be a real challenge. Assuming the liches carried these as memorized spells (for the non-Sorcerer variants) does mean they are a little less world-ending. [ASIDE: Do spells with a V component work in a vacuum?]

Just using the founding members of the Justice League provides us with several options that will work on the majority of liches just off the top of our head, too. The outliers will be the interesting cases, but in the end I think the top end of the comic-book power scale is orders of magnitude above the top end of D&D. D&D "gods" have great magic powers and manipulate events in their spheres of influence. DC characters embody dimensions, punch reality, see through time *and* create with the power of D&D Gods...or simply mind control the Gods to do it for them. And that's just a few of the (top end, yes) good guys on one team.

You can put Acerak or the dracolich into DC and make great stories. You can't put Flash, Superman Prime, Martian Manhunter, Spectre, Grodd or a handful of others into D&D and have them be reasonably opposed by anything less than a collection of top FR Gods. That's without characters like Phantom Stranger, Fate, or broken Captain Atom.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

Preamble: Agree that they are well above the paygrade/powerscale of most heroes, and even most versions of heroes pre-mid- to late-80s. However, most of these liches would be trivial matters for the exceptional heroes. If well prepared, the liches stand a much improved chance, but still mostly come up short IMO. If well prepared, the heroes handle almost all of them nearly trivially.

You're using D&D universe rules, though. This is the other way around...the liches are playing in the DC universe. Liches are immune to mind-altering effects of D&D magic...something that is very different and arguably more flexible *and* limited than 4-color superhero powers. Imagine a class in D&D that could *only* read minds and influence thoughts. Imagine how much more potent that ability would have to be than a handful of spells that allow similar actions while also providing transformation, evocation, conjuration, etc etc magics. Martian Manhunter isn't using some 2nd level spell, nor is Max Lord or Grodd. These three, while exceptional, bring a level of mind power to the table that is beyond anything contemplated by D&D.

Flash doesn't need to drain speed to impact Liches. He can go straight-forward physical with an infinite-mass punch, timestream by running the lich back to the Precambrian and drop them in a super volcano (or even just into a regular volcano without changing time zones) before the lich can process what has happened.

Does Gate allow time shifting? I agree, certainly, that trapping them traditionally will be a real challenge. Assuming the liches carried these as memorized spells (for the non-Sorcerer variants) does mean they are a little less world-ending. [ASIDE: Do spells with a V component work in a vacuum?]

Just using the founding members of the Justice League provides us with several options that will work on the majority of liches just off the top of our head, too. The outliers will be the interesting cases, but in the end I think the top end of the comic-book power scale is orders of magnitude above the top end of D&D. D&D "gods" have great magic powers and manipulate events in their spheres of influence. DC characters embody dimensions, punch reality, see through time *and* create with the power of D&D Gods...or simply mind control the Gods to do it for them. And that's just a few of the (top end, yes) good guys on one team.

You can put Acerak or the dracolich into DC and make great stories. You can't put Flash, Superman Prime, Martian Manhunter, Spectre, Grodd or a handful of others into D&D and have them be reasonably opposed by anything less than a collection of top FR Gods. That's without characters like Phantom Stranger, Fate, or broken Captain Atom.

- M

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{scrubbed} you are picking and choosing which abilities are allowed to work. Its either everything does what its expected with the proper defenses also doing as such or neither is compatible.

For instance, all liches are undead. There has not been any case of any mind control magic ever used in DC that effected zombies, which liches are related to. DC has a whole universe of zombies just like Marvel, and the biggest take away was everyone fled the planet cause they had no way to stop them. And there are several classes in dnd that focus exclusively on mind magic like the mindbender, and they get shutdown by undead like everyone else. To add to that, Mind Blank in older editions can even resist reality warping abilities, which is, again, a common enough spell that their are few liches that don't have it, if not actively under it. Max lord and grodd aren't beating the basic ones; manhunter if you pull from his older stuff that technically was phased out (like how he mentally held his people from the afterlife) would work against the younger ones, but he's not beating the older ones.


Flash can not get near the older liches. Its not even about touch, its about being close enough that he falls within their aura and would instantly die. The really old ones even have an extended fear aura like dragons that works off sight (and does NOT reset, each time they get in eyesight of it they have to make that save) and ALL liches are immune to physical damage from non magical sources. If Flash runs up on a lich, lets say a young one, and somehow survive that ones's aura he would deal no damage. If he touches any of them he himself will get drained, which would more than likely outright kill him that way too. He does not have the tools to fight them. His best bet though, would be to team up with zatanna or fate or more than likely Constantine (since he's more likely to use enchanments on others) and do enough research to enchant the flash into a DC equivalent of a diamond mind monk. But that requires foresight, and we are talking about just randomly meeting. Flash would be long time dead before he can do anything.

People have made the Flash in dnd. They made manhunter. They even made the flying brick. When you look at the whole of abilities that dnd has it comfortably sits in DC's top end. Punching dimensions is powerful, but what does that matter to a warblade that says "im not affected by reality being destroyed " then is suddenly not? Toss them in the sun? "Im not affected by the sun" (okay, i couldn't resist resurrecting the meme. Sue me). Older editions of dnd have more and more fluid a ruleset when it comes to magic, which is what liches are about. 5e? The young ones? They getting remurdered mostly. 2e epic? No. The space between adnd and 2e, where magic allowed for mortals to ascend with no limits? Yeah no. Even still, thats assuming they are hostile. Two of the most well-known liches of dnd, Acererak and Vecna, generally don't care about anything other than their pet projects or acquiring secrets. In Acererak's case, his most recent pet project was growing a god. I have no idea what wotc is doing with vecna this summer but it sounds like more than anything else some time travelling is going to be involved. That or they crap all over Greyhawk lore. Which wouldn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by HolyDraconus

{scrubbed} you are picking and choosing which abilities are allowed to work. Its either everything does what its expected with the proper defenses also doing as such or neither is compatible.

For instance, all liches are undead. There has not been any case of any mind control magic ever used in DC that effected zombies, which liches are related to. DC has a whole universe of zombies just like Marvel, and the biggest take away was everyone fled the planet cause they had no way to stop them. And there are several classes in dnd that focus exclusively on mind magic like the mindbender, and they get shutdown by undead like everyone else. To add to that, Mind Blank in older editions can even resist reality warping abilities, which is, again, a common enough spell that their are few liches that don't have it, if not actively under it. Max lord and grodd aren't beating the basic ones; manhunter if you pull from his older stuff that technically was phased out (like how he mentally held his people from the afterlife) would work against the younger ones, but he's not beating the older ones.


Flash can not get near the older liches. Its not even about touch, its about being close enough that he falls within their aura and would instantly die. The really old ones even have an extended fear aura like dragons that works off sight (and does NOT reset, each time they get in eyesight of it they have to make that save) and ALL liches are immune to physical damage from non magical sources. If Flash runs up on a lich, lets say a young one, and somehow survive that ones's aura he would deal no damage. If he touches any of them he himself will get drained, which would more than likely outright kill him that way too. He does not have the tools to fight them. His best bet though, would be to team up with zatanna or fate or more than likely Constantine (since he's more likely to use enchanments on others) and do enough research to enchant the flash into a DC equivalent of a diamond mind monk. But that requires foresight, and we are talking about just randomly meeting. Flash would be long time dead before he can do anything.

People have made the Flash in dnd. They made manhunter. They even made the flying brick. When you look at the whole of abilities that dnd has it comfortably sits in DC's top end. Punching dimensions is powerful, but what does that matter to a warblade that says "im not affected by reality being destroyed " then is suddenly not? Toss them in the sun? "Im not affected by the sun" (okay, i couldn't resist resurrecting the meme. Sue me). Older editions of dnd have more and more fluid a ruleset when it comes to magic, which is what liches are about. 5e? The young ones? They getting remurdered mostly. 2e epic? No. The space between adnd and 2e, where magic allowed for mortals to ascend with no limits? Yeah no. Even still, thats assuming they are hostile. Two of the most well-known liches of dnd, Acererak and Vecna, generally don't care about anything other than their pet projects or acquiring secrets. In Acererak's case, his most recent pet project was growing a god. I have no idea what wotc is doing with vecna this summer but it sounds like more than anything else some time travelling is going to be involved. That or they crap all over Greyhawk lore. Which wouldn't surprise me.

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You appear to be choosing to apply rules from one universe to another, and by decree saying those rules reign.

No, no one has made Flash in D&D. The game simply doesn't support it. No one has made Martian Manhunter in D&D. The structure simply doesn't exist.

Liches are related to zombies. Zombies are presented as mindless. Liches are not. One might argue (I would) liches have more in common with their original species than they do with zombies. Liches are related to vampires. Vampires in comic books have been shown to be subject to domination, telepathy and other mental powers. Also - zombie apocalypse is a special kind of sub-genre that takes zombies beyond many logical conclusions...so to have zombie horror in a super hero world you have to escalate the zombies well beyond the pale. That's kind of a trope of super-hero universes.

Classes that focus exclusively on mind magic? So mindbenders can't cast fireball or overland flight or invisibility or magic missile? They specialize in one area of magic while still retaining all other areas of magic...and do so within one ruleset. That is not the same as a character that can *only* use one of their powers. Would you ever play a D&D character that could only cast Detect Thoughts? Not unless they got some special version of Detect Thoughts, I imagine.

The reality warping that Mind Blank prevents is mind-affecting, right? Not the literal reality-warping that some DC (and Marvel) heroes (actual heroes, not just super-adversaries, villains, or the like) can accomplish. Mind Blank vs Grodd and Lord? Yup, effective. If it is up.

Can you point me to the death aura rules? I see the fear aura, and if you're suggesting main line Justice Leaguers wouldn't easily exceed 5HD then there is little point in this conversation. I think there could be a good discussion on does the Speed Force, for instance, count as a magical effect empowering Flash...but let's accept that it does not, and that we are using immunity instead of damage resistance. Dropping the lich in a prehistoric era still seems to play. Remember the speed Flash is working with...the opponent would never get to sense what was happening, much less act, before the action is complete. The negative energy drain from touch? He can soak that for a round. Why would it outright kill him when it generally does like 15hp of savable damage per attack in the D&D world?

Based on the idea of "plopped into the DC universe" I *think* we agree that run of the mill liches are really kind of a non-issue. I don't know 5e at all, and did not play 2e (so AD&D, 3e and 4e). I've already said the Aceraks of the world are a special case. Wouldn't have thought to include Vecna because I already had him past that level. But I think if the liches of an era are defeatable (even if not permanently) by a balanced group of characters from that era...the Justice League can take them, albeit maybe with some losses.

- M

Bumping this thread:

I feel like I want to write a Marvel or DC Comics/Dungeons & Dragons Crossover Story about the D&D Dragon Deities Pantheon entering their world. :smile: