What Would Happen If The D&D Dragon Deities Pantheon Were In DC Or Marvel Universe?

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Sure, and the setting could have been named "Rater's Wish Fulfillment". Just because you have incredibly specific hangups about existence, consciousness, and dearh does not mean that every setting that has an end being means that whoever designed it is Evil.

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Is this meant to come across as a personal attack? Because it's coming across as a personal attack.

My "hangups" have nothing to do with supposedly "Good" beings farming sapient life forms and consuming them in a way that necessitates total ego Death being horrific or not.

Like, if vampires were kidnapping humans and drugging them itno comas in order to more easily farm them for blood, they'd be the clear cu villains fo the story and any justifications they made about it would be presented as excuses, self-justification, or posturing at best. Even if the drugs they're blitzed out on are te best drugs and the victims feel no pain and experience euphoric dreams the whole time they're being sucked dry, it's not not a fate that should be wished on anyone.

Why do the gods get a pass for the same?

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Is this meant to come across as a personal attack? Because it's coming across as a personal attack.

My "hangups" have nothing to do with supposedly "Good" beings farming sapient life forms and consuming them in a way that necessitates total ego Death being horrific or not.

Like, if vampires were kidnapping humans and drugging them itno comas in order to more easily farm them for blood, they'd be the clear cu villains fo the story and any justifications they made about it would be presented as excuses, self-justification, or posturing at best. Even if the drugs they're blitzed out on are te best drugs and the victims feel no pain and experience euphoric dreams the whole time they're being sucked dry, it's not not a fate that should be wished on anyone.

Why do the gods get a pass for the same?

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Probably because the two situations arent really analogous outside of your perceptions due the the abovementioned opinions on death and identity.

I'm sorry but I'm trying to grasp a very clear comprehension of everyone post saying that D&D Dragon Deities even the good dragon deities are a huge threat for both Marvel & DC Universe for they consider soul eating monsters and the afterlife and such.

I'm sorry but none of it makes no sense at all for what this thread is about. :annoyed:

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Originally Posted by Rater202

My "hangups" have nothing to do with supposedly "Good" beings farming sapient life forms and consuming them in a way that necessitates total ego Death being horrific or not.

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I mean, it does when you frame it in a way that doesn't line up with the actual text and combine three or four different settings into a single conglomerate. You're certainly free to interpret it however you want, but you don't get to act like we're acting in bad faith for not entertaining your interpretation as if it's fact. I had to pull out On Hallowed Ground just to look for your citation and it doesn't say what you say it says, or any way close to how you say it says. I'm really not eager to go get Faiths and Pantheons off the shelf to refute the Forgotten Realms specific one. And there is some troubling stuff in Forgotten Realms you've just skipped over like The Faithless to get to your main point that doesn't line up with Forgotten Realms as far as I can remember.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Is this meant to come across as a personal attack? Because it's coming across as a personal attack.

My "hangups" have nothing to do with supposedly "Good" beings farming sapient life forms and consuming them in a way that necessitates total ego Death being horrific or not.

Like, if vampires were kidnapping humans and drugging them itno comas in order to more easily farm them for blood, they'd be the clear cu villains fo the story and any justifications they made about it would be presented as excuses, self-justification, or posturing at best. Even if the drugs they're blitzed out on are te best drugs and the victims feel no pain and experience euphoric dreams the whole time they're being sucked dry, it's not not a fate that should be wished on anyone.

Why do the gods get a pass for the same?

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When you bring up how all afterlives ever should ideally be eternal, even in settings where they are not, and the fact that they are not can only result in all gods being Evil, then yes, your personal issues with death and consciousness and identity have a great deal to do with it.

Yeah, taking the Order of the Stick version of the gods (which to be fair, is basically what you describe and the feeling that the gods view mortals as crops to be harvested and consumed is called out in story) and acting like the Forgotten Realms versions operate on the same rules sort of neuters the critique.

I don't think "Souls aren't eternal" inherently means the gods are evil. The Forgotten Realms gods mostly are admittedly, even the nominally good ones, but for different reasons.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

When you bring up how all afterlives ever should ideally be eternal, even in settings where they are not, and the fact that they are not can only result in all gods being Evil, then yes, your personal issues with death and consciousness and identity have a great deal to do with it.

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Again, Eternity is implied by the existence of an afterlife. That is literally the whole point of believing in an afterlife.

Non eternal post mortum existence would be cessation of existence, There's nothing after or reincarnation, you end but your soul is recycled and becomes someone knew who may or may not have some continuity with you.

Beyond that, my statements apply to the D&D afterlife and D&D gods only because that is literally the only case of this scenario existing that I can think of.

Taking all available sources together, the D&D 'afterlife' is a false promise by the gods of something in the hereafter but is in fact an artificially imposed condition wherein souls are wiped of almost all memory and identity and then slowly processed into a for hat can then be assimilated into either the deity they worship, essentially in practice one of the most drawn out and horrific forms of cessation of existance.

There is no indication whatsoever that this is common knowledge ont eh material plane, which lead to the conclusion that the gods are not sharing this information with their worshipers. Great example being in The Gian'ts version of events, where Roy's Archon leaves out that the transcendence on the highest peak of Mount Celestia is becoming a cookie-cutter faith battery indistinguishable form anyone else on that level.

the Gods are evil because they imposed an artificial afterlife that serves to turn their worshipers into a means of sustaining themselves at the expense of those same worshipers.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Again, Eternity is implied by the existence of an afterlife. That is literally the whole point of believing in an afterlife.

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What an afterlife implies is that you persist in some form after you die. It does not have to mean an infinite afterlife, while that idea is very popular with people because it's a comforting notion, it is not universal. There's plenty of fictional afterlives that are textually finite.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Taking all available sources together, the D&D 'afterlife' is a false promise by the gods of something in the hereafter but is in fact an artificially imposed condition wherein souls are wiped of almost all memory and identity and then slowly processed into a for hat can then be assimilated into either the deity they worship, essentially in practice one of the most drawn out and horrific forms of cessation of existance.

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You aren't taking all available sources together though. You're picking and choosing sources that support you, and your primary source is how a D&D pastiche chose to depict the gods in their story, which doesn't really match the official version.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

You aren't taking all available sources together though. You're picking and choosing sources that support you, and your primary source is how a D&D pastiche chose to depict the gods in their story, which doesn't really match the official version.

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1: When did I ever say Oots was my primary source and not just one example?

2: I've linked to a post of the Giant describing that how it works in Oots is based on standard D&D cosmology and um... Given that he's one of the people who worked on D&D I think he's a credible source on how it works so even if Oots was my primary source citing that against me isn't exactly the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Again, Eternity is implied by the existence of an afterlife. That is literally the whole point of believing in an afterlife.

Non eternal post mortum existence would be cessation of existence, There's nothing after or reincarnation, you end but your soul is recycled and becomes someone knew who may or may not have some continuity with you.

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Except not. You could have an afterlife and then be reincarnated. You're demanding we use your definition and that seems a really weird track to take. Even if you get reincarnated, there's still a place where you get to go After Life. You know. Like an afterlife.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Beyond that, my statements apply to the D&D afterlife and D&D gods only because that is literally the only case of this scenario existing that I can think of.

Taking all available sources together, the D&D 'afterlife' is a false promise by the gods of something in the hereafter but is in fact an artificially imposed condition wherein souls are wiped of almost all memory and identity and then slowly processed into a for hat can then be assimilated into either the deity they worship, essentially in practice one of the most drawn out and horrific forms of cessation of existance.

There is no indication whatsoever that this is common knowledge ont eh material plane, which lead to the conclusion that the gods are not sharing this information with their worshipers. Great example being in The Gian'ts version of events, where Roy's Archon leaves out that the transcendence on the highest peak of Mount Celestia is becoming a cookie-cutter faith battery indistinguishable form anyone else on that level.

the Gods are evil because they imposed an artificial afterlife that serves to turn their worshipers into a means of sustaining themselves at the expense of those same worshipers.

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There is no "D&D" Afterlife. It's different per setting. The afterlife of Atas and Faerun are different. The afterlife in OotS isn' "The D&D afterlife". It's Rich's afterlife.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Given that he's one of the people who worked on D&D I think he's a credible source on how it works so even if Oots was my primary source citing that against me isn't exactly the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

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Rich is writing in the way that works best for him as a writer for his independent project. Should we start arguing that Pathfinder or Pillars of Eternity are credible sources on D&D lore just because they're D&D inspired projects produced by teams that had experience on official D&D material?

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Again, Eternity is implied by the existence of an afterlife. That is literally the whole point of believing in an afterlife.

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This is exactly what i meant by "your hangups". You very clearly have a hangup about this exact, very particular thing. I have asked, several times, where, in any of the source books, it's said that the afterlife is eternal. At no point did you ever address this. Your sole contention is that it should be.

If you feel that way, that's fine. Everyone has different values and beliefs about how things should be. If you want to argue that all the gods in D&D are evil across the board because it's not the exact way you want it to be? Then yes, your specific, personal belief is being injected into the issue. I do not know how to make this any more clear.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

2: I've linked to a post of the Giant describing that how it works in Oots is based on standard D&D cosmology and um... Given that he's one of the people who worked on D&D I think he's a credible source on how it works so even if Oots was my primary source citing that against me isn't exactly the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

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How many writers do you think have "worked on D&D" over the years? Do you believe them all to be experts, authorities or credible sources on every component of D&D? How should we reconcile the differences in works across the decades, editions, or even books within one edition?

And all of that already assumes you are reading the single writer correctly.

Saying someone's opinion is wrong isn't a personal attack. Saying there is an amount of evidence opposed to someone's opinion isn't a personal attack.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

How many writers do you think have "worked on D&D" over the years? Do you believe them all to be experts, authorities or credible sources on every component of D&D? How should we reconcile the differences in works across the decades, editions, or even books within one edition?

And all of that already assumes you are reading the single writer correctly.

Saying someone's opinion is wrong isn't a personal attack. Saying there is an amount of evidence opposed to someone's opinion isn't a personal attack.

- M

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I'll add: In both D&D land and in TOotS the gods themselves can be killed and are not eternal. It seems unreasonable to blame them for other things not being eternal and unending when they can't even manage that for themselves.

I can name multiple real world religions where the gods can be killed and are not neccessarily eternal and where souls exist and are not neccessarily eternal.

I can name multiple real world religions where there is an eternal soul, but identity and memory are not eternal.

The insistance that an afterlife must be eternal just doesn't seem to be a requirement for most people.

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Originally Posted by Rater202

Again, Eternity is implied by the existence of an afterlife. That is literally the whole point of believing in an afterlife.

Non eternal post mortum existence would be cessation of existence, There's nothing after or reincarnation, you end but your soul is recycled and becomes someone new who may or may not have some continuity with you.

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As someone who has no real stakes in this whole business, seeing how I barely care more for D&D cosmology (man, nominally Good Elysium is just the creepiest ****) than Marvel stuff, which is to say: really, really not much… I have to agree with Dupg and Mr. Lee here. That's just a shockingly poor understanding of eschatology.

For starters, I could name a probably rules-legal (!) example of a model with an afterlife and reincarnation before and after that, with truly eternal stay in the afterlife for some (which is objectively the worst possible fate the system has on offer) in the Vision of Er from Plato's Republic. And if We could go into actual religions or at least Plotinus here… Oh, man.

Hopefully more in the spirit in which this was intended, I suspect the good deities would probably find a way to fit in somehow and sporadically ally if it suited their own interests or they saw really disruptive evil. The evil ones...I don't see how Tiamat could actually kill Superman unless they really depowered him since I was paying any attention to him. Batman might have to think a while to come up with a good strategy.

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Originally Posted by Arcane_Secrets

The evil ones...I don't see how Tiamat could actually kill Superman unless they really depowered him since I was paying any attention to him.

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Superman's powers provide him no protection against magic. And if there's one thing that D&D gods like Tiamat have at their disposal in abudance, it's magic.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

Superman's powers provide him no protection against magic. And if there's one thing that D&D gods like Tiamat have at their disposal in abudance, it's magic.

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This is where not keeping on this is a real downside...

So what happens when he runs into an opponent that has a lot of magic? I hardly believe that he's lost to every single one of them otherwise there wouldn't be earth(s) and I sort of can't see him asking someone else for help every single time even though he obviously would get it from at least someone who could.

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Originally Posted by Arcane_Secrets

This is where not keeping on this is a real downside...

So what happens when he runs into an opponent that has a lot of magic? I hardly believe that he's lost to every single one of them otherwise there wouldn't be earth(s) and I sort of can't see him asking someone else for help every single time even though he obviously would get it from at least someone who could.

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From my understanding "no protection against magic" means somebody could turn him into a super-rabbit or something, not necessarily that they could pull out a magic wand and start crushing him with boulders. You still have to be clever in how you apply the powers otherwise youre just using a differently generated form of something he's strong against.

He doesn't lose all his powers, only his invincibility/durability. He's still stronger than a locomotive, faster than a speeding bullet, etc. And I imagine his saving throws are pretty beefy even without the DR 999/Kryptonite.

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Originally Posted by Arcane_Secrets

This is where not keeping on this is a real downside...

So what happens when he runs into an opponent that has a lot of magic? I hardly believe that he's lost to every single one of them otherwise there wouldn't be earth(s) and I sort of can't see him asking someone else for help every single time even though he obviously would get it from at least someone who could.

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Actually, Superman is totally willing to ask for help dealing with those rare magical threats that can't be beaten by mere superspeed and mega-punching. Being a founding member of the Justice League and one of the most prominent heroes on Earth, when he runs into one of the few things he can't deal with he calls on help from those people who can deal with it, and Superman happens to have some real heavy-hitters on the magical side of the fence in his corner. Captain Marvel, AKA Shazam, is one of the more powerful magical entities in the DCU (barring dimensional gods and what have you), and will show up to help Supes on a moment's notice. Doctor Fate, another Justice League member, is one of the most dangerous magic-users in the DCU, and while he's not quite as close to Superman as Shazam is he's also a competent future seer and will often deal with major magical threats to Superman before they have a chance to act. There's also some other assorted magical powerhouses like Raven, Zatanna, John Constantine and the like who will go to bat for Superman if they need to. As a rule, the magical-type superheroes know that magic is the one thing that Superman actually can't deal with properly, so they tend to put in a lot of effort when something magical does go after Supes.

Plus, even if he isn't invulnerable to magic, Superman still has all his other powers when confronted by a magic-user. Which means that at the bare minimum you need to be able to hit him with your bad mojo despite his superspeed and superhuman reflexes, and defend yourself against his overwhelming offensive power long enough to do so. This tends to establish the baseline for magical threats to Superman very, very high up the pecking order. Now, an Evil God like Tiamat is definitely powerful enough to qualify, and D&D in particular has a lot of threats that Superman is very poorly equipped to deal with; most Incorporeal undead are potentially lethal threats to him, for example. Though I imagine Doctor Fate would probably have something to say about that, and he is for all intents and purposes the rough equivalent of a 20th level Cleric.

Superman's weakness to magical attacks tends to be a bit overblown. It's not so much that he insta-loses to magic as it is that he has no special defense against magic. It's not Kryptonite, he retains all his powers, unless you're absolutely top-tier on the magic side of things he's still going to push your teeth in if you try to hurt him.

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Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

Superman's weakness to magical attacks tends to be a bit overblown. It's not so much that he insta-loses to magic as it is that he has no special defense against magic. It's not Kryptonite, he retains all his powers, unless you're absolutely top-tier on the magic side of things he's still going to push your teeth in if you try to hurt him.

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Which is why I worded my remark on the subject the way I did. "His powers provide him no protection against magic."

But on that subject, a literal god in D&D tends to be pretty top-tier on the magic side of things, and pretty durable themselves. If you're looking for an opponent that can beat Superman in a fight, it feels like an actual god out of D&D is one of the best suited options you're going to get, short of an enemy made of kryptonite or something.

Yes, Superman is very vulnerable to magic and he's going to have a very difficult time fighting a deity like Tiamat all by himself.

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Originally Posted by Zevox

Which is why I worded my remark on the subject the way I did. "His powers provide him no protection against magic."

But on that subject, a literal god in D&D tends to be pretty top-tier on the magic side of things, and pretty durable themselves. If you're looking for an opponent that can beat Superman in a fight, it feels like an actual god out of D&D is one of the best suited options you're going to get, short of an enemy made of kryptonite or something.

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Isn't the latter just Metallo, who Superman has in fact beaten?

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Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Isn't the latter just Metallo, who Superman has in fact beaten?

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There's a few villains and even superheroes killed Superman such as Doomsday (which Doomsday also killed himself) and Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman uses Kryptonite and rip off Superman spine.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Then you're ethically consistent and i have no objection!

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Could I have permission to put this in my signature? :O

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Could I have permission to put this in my signature? :O

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Yes, and public reminder that i have a standing general "anyone can sig me any time without asking" policy.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

Yes, and public reminder that i have a standing general "anyone can sig me any time without asking" policy.

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Great! I wasn't aware of your signature policy and now I am. Thanks. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer

Yes, Superman is very vulnerable to magic and he's going to have a very difficult time fighting a deity like Tiamat all by himself.

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Like so many things involving super heroes, it all comes down to who starts the fight.

Assuming the D&D Dragon Deities are bound by D&D magic and not suddenly opened up to comic-book magic, I think there are several DC heroes that could acquit themselves well against the newcomers (just like there are several that could fight reasonably well against the existing comic-book "gods"). Just spitballing, but I'd put the 2 newcomers I know anything about (Tiamat & Bahamut) in probably the top tier of non-reality warpers, but probably not within the top third of that top tier.

- M

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Originally Posted by Mordar

Like so many things involving super heroes, it all comes down to who starts the fight.

Assuming the D&D Dragon Deities are bound by D&D magic and not suddenly opened up to comic-book magic, I think there are several DC heroes that could acquit themselves well against the newcomers (just like there are several that could fight reasonably well against the existing comic-book "gods"). Just spitballing, but I'd put the 2 newcomers I know anything about (Tiamat & Bahamut) in probably the top tier of non-reality warpers, but probably not within the top third of that top tier.

- M

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Yes. I really agree with you on your comment. Bahamut & Tiamat will do quite well in the DC Universe. :smile: