Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
I found an old AD&D DMG from a starter set I had as a kid, and I'm porting it to 5e for a group of 4 level 3 players. This is the first time I've tried this (I never really played AD&D, just read the books).
I'm mostly going on Wizard's conversion guides; most of the monsters are pretty familiar, so I'm just creating balanced (as best I can) encounters with the same vibe instead of updating the stat blocks directly.
The final boss is a monster that didn't make it past 3e, so I'm just using a Deathlock, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something. The villain of the adventure's the ghost of a wizard, and the final battle is him forced into his decaying former body. The original adventure basically makes him a melee only undead, and I'm wondering if that was the point, and I'm losing something by using a spellcaster undead.
I'm a little worried about treasure too, since AD&D hands out +2 and +3 weapons like candy. I was thinking of just nerfing the +2 and higher weapons down to +1, or replacing them with uncommon magic weapons, but I'm not sure that's the best approach?
Has anyone who's run AD&D adventures in 5e before got any thoughts on the above, or tips?
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
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Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
The final boss is a monster that didn't make it past 3e, so I'm just using a Deathlock, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something. The villain of the adventure's the ghost of a wizard, and the final battle is him forced into his decaying former body. The original adventure basically makes him a melee only undead, and I'm wondering if that was the point, and I'm losing something by using a spellcaster undead.
Is the wizard able to cast spells while in ghostly form, but the final boss is him being cut from his magic by being forced into his corpse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
I'm a little worried about treasure too, since AD&D hands out +2 and +3 weapons like candy. I was thinking of just nerfing the +2 and higher weapons down to +1, or replacing them with uncommon magic weapons, but I'm not sure that's the best approach?
That would likely be for the best. Common and uncommon magic weapons can be pretty great and flavorful, and a +2 or +3 weapon in 5e are very significant boosts.
You can also remove some of the weapons, on top of that.
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
Has anyone who's run AD&D adventures in 5e before got any thoughts on the above, or tips?
I've done it with Dark Clouds Gather. You have a ton of work ahead of you. You'll need to rework every encounter to ensure it's the appropriate challenge based on 5e assumptions and PC abilities, you'll need to swap creatures that did not make it all the way to 5e, you'll need to tweak BBEG powers (you already know that), and I'm sure there are a few other things I did that I don't remember now.
It was worth it, but damn it was a lot of pre-work.
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
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Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
Is the wizard able to cast spells while in ghostly form, but the final boss is him being cut from his magic by being forced into his corpse?
Implicitly; he only has a very basic fear spell on his ghost statblock, but he shows up throughout the adventure to do scary house things™ (like summon enemies or seal up houses).
It's possible that spellcasting undead weren't level appropriate back in AD&D.
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Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
That would likely be for the best. Common and uncommon magic weapons can be pretty great and flavorful, and a +2 or +3 weapon in 5e are very significant boosts.
You can also remove some of the weapons, on top of that.
I think what I might do is just roll a random treasure hoard and distribute that (aside from one specific case of a Luck Stone that feels very thematically appropriate). Should be way easier than trying to make a judgement call on how many of the items are too many.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonBeowulf
I've done it with Dark Clouds Gather. You have a ton of work ahead of you. You'll need to rework every encounter to ensure it's the appropriate challenge based on 5e assumptions and PC abilities, you'll need to swap creatures that did not make it all the way to 5e, you'll need to tweak BBEG powers (you already know that), and I'm sure there are a few other things I did that I don't remember now.
It was worth it, but damn it was a lot of pre-work.
Aside from the final boss (and some grabbing hand things that I'll probably just make a complex trap), they're all creatures that made it (undead are persistent like that ;) ).
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
Implicitly; he only has a very basic fear spell on his ghost statblock, but he shows up throughout the adventure to do scary house things™ (like summon enemies or seal up houses).
Could be nice to replicate that "ghost with magic, corpse without" formula but making it explicit and more obvious, I think. Or you can go spellcaster all the way as you planned.
However, what would be the reason to force the ghost back in the corpse, if not to cut out the access to magic? Just not having to deal with ghostly abilities?
Personally I would make the Ghost Wizard an illusionist or enchanter, using their spells to fool and manipulate anyone in his area of activity very efficiently while taking advantage of the ghost abilities to remove the weaknesses such a caster usually has. Meanwhile the Corpse Wizard don't have magic and can't just disappear to keep messing with the PCs, but he'd be an ultra-aggressive juggernaugt, like a Slasher villain with a grudge-fueled determination to pummel the PCs into next week and keep hitting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
I think what I might do is just roll a random treasure hoard and distribute that (aside from one specific case of a Luck Stone that feels very thematically appropriate). Should be way easier than trying to make a judgement call on how many of the items are too many.
Can be a great solution, indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
Aside from the final boss (and some grabbing hand things that I'll probably just make a complex trap), they're all creatures that made it (undead are persistent like that ;) ).
Undead are persistent, but their power levels vary widely from edition to edition. That's something to be careful about.
About the grabbing hands: are they Crawling Claws? Because those are in 5e.
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
The final boss is a monster that didn't make it past 3e, so I'm just using a Deathlock, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something. The villain of the adventure's the ghost of a wizard, and the final battle is him forced into his decaying former body. The original adventure basically makes him a melee only undead, and I'm wondering if that was the point, and I'm losing something by using a spellcaster undead.
Spellcasting undead are mostly just not a thing in AD&D (except liches). The fear thing is supposed to be a ghost thing, not a spell. So it's mostly just a matter of taste on your part if you think he should have spells.
Quote:
I'm a little worried about treasure too, since AD&D hands out +2 and +3 weapons like candy. I was thinking of just nerfing the +2 and higher weapons down to +1, or replacing them with uncommon magic weapons, but I'm not sure that's the best approach?
It doesn't look like there are that many magic weapons in that adventure, and only one is a +2 weapon, so I'm not sure what you mean by handing them out like candy (the adventure does try to ensure the PCs will have some so that they can fight the ju-ju zombie, which is immune to nonmagic weapons). But generally, I would say that the adventure tries to stick with low plus weapons so that the PCs can't fight the ghost, while including that one +2 as a hail mary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
Implicitly; he only has a very basic fear spell on his ghost statblock, but he shows up throughout the adventure to do scary house things™ (like summon enemies or seal up houses).
I think that's supposed to be just generally spooky stuff, not magic. I think the adventure actually originated as a Ravenloft introduction, and those are supposed to be like little darklord abilities.
Quote:
I think what I might do is just roll a random treasure hoard and distribute that (aside from one specific case of a Luck Stone that feels very thematically appropriate). Should be way easier than trying to make a judgement call on how many of the items are too many.
Having run this adventure in 3e, I'll note that it's pretty generous with healing items, because the PCs are trapped in the house and can't get out to rest. You may not need those in 5e, but it's something to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
However, what would be the reason to force the ghost back in the corpse, if not to cut out the access to magic? Just not having to deal with ghostly abilities?
The premise of the adventure is that the ghost is just way too powerful to fight, but it doesn't really attack until midnight, so the PCs have to figure it out before then. The "ghost abilities" are basically scripted attacks it makes before that.
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Personally I would make the Ghost Wizard an illusionist or enchanter,
I don't think that the adventure makes much sense with the wizard being anything but a necromancer.
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About the grabbing hands: are they Crawling Claws? Because those are in 5e.
The hands don't move. They just burst out of the floor, then try to grab someone and drag them under (to instant death).
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
Could be nice to replicate that "ghost with magic, corpse without" formula but making it explicit and more obvious, I think. Or you can go spellcaster all the way as you planned.
However, what would be the reason to force the ghost back in the corpse, if not to cut out the access to magic? Just not having to deal with ghostly abilities?
Personally I would make the Ghost Wizard an illusionist or enchanter, using their spells to fool and manipulate anyone in his area of activity very efficiently while taking advantage of the ghost abilities to remove the weaknesses such a caster usually has. Meanwhile the Corpse Wizard don't have magic and can't just disappear to keep messing with the PCs, but he'd be an ultra-aggressive juggernaugt, like a Slasher villain with a grudge-fueled determination to pummel the PCs into next week and keep hitting.
Can be a great solution, indeed.
Undead are persistent, but their power levels vary widely from edition to edition. That's something to be careful about.
About the grabbing hands: are they Crawling Claws? Because those are in 5e.
Basically putting his ghost in his corpse makes him vulnerable. Probably best not to overthink it, but I'm running this in a Westmarches style campaign, and there's some lore that might explain it.
For what it's worth, his corporal form is basically trapped in a boss arena with the PCs. :smallwink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thane of Fife
Spellcasting undead are mostly just not a thing in AD&D (except liches). The fear thing is supposed to be a ghost thing, not a spell. So it's mostly just a matter of taste on your part if you think he should have spells.
It doesn't look like there are that many magic weapons in that adventure, and only one is a +2 weapon, so I'm not sure what you mean by handing them out like candy (the adventure does try to ensure the PCs will have some so that they can fight the ju-ju zombie, which is immune to nonmagic weapons). But generally, I would say that the adventure tries to stick with low plus weapons so that the PCs can't fight the ghost, while including that one +2 as a hail mary.
I think that's supposed to be just generally spooky stuff, not magic. I think the adventure actually originated as a Ravenloft introduction, and those are supposed to be like little darklord abilities.
Having run this adventure in 3e, I'll note that it's pretty generous with healing items, because the PCs are trapped in the house and can't get out to rest. You may not need those in 5e, but it's something to consider.
The premise of the adventure is that the ghost is just way too powerful to fight, but it doesn't really attack until midnight, so the PCs have to figure it out before then. The "ghost abilities" are basically scripted attacks it makes before that.
I don't think that the adventure makes much sense with the wizard being anything but a necromancer.
The hands don't move. They just burst out of the floor, then try to grab someone and drag them under (to instant death).
This is all useful to know!
According the my Googling, the best way to gauge the CR of AD&D creatures is from their XP. So with that I've got:
- Shadows: CR1 vs. 1/2 in 5e; But given they can easily kill off a party member, I might even reduce the number of them to 1 (the encounter's basically an avoidable trap so the chance to get some strength drain on the Paladin might be enough).
- "Clutching Hands": CR1 (one CR1/4 per character); Basically a trap, so I'll run it as such instead of finding a stat block.
- Zombies: CR1/4 vs. 1/4; no changes needed here (plus the idea is that the party can just RE their way through the room instead of fighting them if they want anyway) =3
- Constrictor Snake: CR1/2 vs 1/4; I'll probably leave this at 3 to avoid a situation where every party member is constricted (the boss is a little higher CR than the original adventure, so it levels out).
- Giant Rats: CR1/8 vs. 1/8; I'll keep this the same (it's a dead end, and they run away if enough go down). There's an additional complication of normal rats swarming the room and getting in the way, which I'll translate as disadvantage.
- Spiders: CR1/2 vs. Giant Wolf Spider (1/4) or Giant Spider (1); the encounter has two, so I reckon if I have two wolf spiders, the action economy will make up the difference. Might throw in another if they seem to be doing too well at this point.
- Ghouls: CR1/2 vs. CR1: I'll keep two ghouls, but I'll have them spend the first round bowing/curtsying before they attack (their flavour is that they used to be servants), to give the party a chance to deal with them before they become too much of a threat.
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BisectedBrioche
Basically putting his ghost in his corpse makes him vulnerable. Probably best not to overthink it, but I'm running this in a Westmarches style campaign, and there's some lore that might explain it.
For what it's worth, his corporal form is basically trapped in a boss arena with the PCs. :smallwink:
This is all useful to know!
According the my Googling, the best way to gauge the CR of AD&D creatures is from their XP. So with that I've got:
- Shadows: CR1 vs. 1/2 in 5e; But given they can easily kill off a party member, I might even reduce the number of them to 1 (the encounter's basically an avoidable trap so the chance to get some strength drain on the Paladin might be enough).
- "Clutching Hands": CR1 (one CR1/4 per character); Basically a trap, so I'll run it as such instead of finding a stat block.
- Zombies: CR1/4 vs. 1/4; no changes needed here (plus the idea is that the party can just RE their way through the room instead of fighting them if they want anyway) =3
- Constrictor Snake: CR1/2 vs 1/4; I'll probably leave this at 3 to avoid a situation where every party member is constricted (the boss is a little higher CR than the original adventure, so it levels out).
- Giant Rats: CR1/8 vs. 1/8; I'll keep this the same (it's a dead end, and they run away if enough go down). There's an additional complication of normal rats swarming the room and getting in the way, which I'll translate as disadvantage.
- Spiders: CR1/2 vs. Giant Wolf Spider (1/4) or Giant Spider (1); the encounter has two, so I reckon if I have two wolf spiders, the action economy will make up the difference. Might throw in another if they seem to be doing too well at this point.
- Ghouls: CR1/2 vs. CR1: I'll keep two ghouls, but I'll have them spend the first round bowing/curtsying before they attack (their flavour is that they used to be servants), to give the party a chance to deal with them before they become too much of a threat.
CR/XP values meant very different things in editions before 5e, especially relatively to what a PC level means.
I advise you to check each encounter in an online CR calculator. Not that CR is the end of the reflection, as you stated for the Shadow.
Are the PCs going to be lvl 1?
Re: Running an AD&D adventure ("The Ghost of Harrow Hill") in 5e; any advice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
CR/XP values meant very different things in editions before 5e, especially relatively to what a PC level means.
I advise you to check each encounter in an online CR calculator. Not that CR is the end of the reflection, as you stated for the Shadow.
Are the PCs going to be lvl 1?
A party of 4 level 3's (Bladesinger, two Warlocks and a Paladin).
To be honest, I feel like the idea for most of the encounters are to keep the PCs on edge while they explore the house (and burn up some of their resources before the boss fight, assuming they don't hit the fail state), so I'm OK eering on the lower side.
