So what might have been Elan's super secret plan?

I mean this plan, for fighting his father. While I'm not exactly willing to put money on this, I do have an idea that could make sense from both a tactical and an... Elanish perspective.

Recruit Sabine, appealing to her desire for revenge. Have her disguise herself as Amun-Zora. Have her consent to the marriage, while the resistance prepares an ambush for the wedding night. As soon as Sabine shows who she really is, the real Amun-Zora crashes through the window.

Sure, it'd catch Tarquin in a vulnerable position (ish - I'm sure he's got some precautions against treacherous brides, though the succubus angle might be a new one). More importantly, a humiliating death at the hands of a woman he's been lusting after would recast him as a more disposable kind of villain. In Star Wars terms, he's not Darth Vader or the Emperor -he's Jabba the Hutt.

Plus, callback.

What do you think? Anyone got a better idea?

Play Hamlet.
By which I mean, write screenplays which allude to the machinations of the Vector Legion controlling the empires.
Not only can the perpetrators evade capture, but it is the singular most /Bardish/ thing to do.
"Rub Rub Rub my Father's face, in my uselessness."

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Originally Posted by Somniloquist

So what might have been Elan's super secret plan?

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I feel like it's too soon for a "might have been". I think there's going to be a sequel set in the Western Continent, and either Elan's super secret plan is revealed as part of the cliffhanger, or Rich is going to reveal it in the sequel itself.

I think this because:

• Roy says so, and Elan backs him up. I think Rich will reveal that the line about "This is not a thing that's going to happen" refers to titling it "Order Stickier."
• There is a high concentration of unfinished plots in the Western Continent, including the super secret plan, that make the story a nightmare to finish in the few hundred pages we have left, given that we're at the North Pole
• Rich introduced a complicated plot involving the Vector Legion, lizardfolk, and either dinosaurs or dragons in the May 2020 calendar page that definitely does not fit in the pages we have left.

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Originally Posted by Somniloquist

What do you think? Anyone got a better idea?

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No! TT_TT But I also have a theory that I'm willing to bet on that the IFCC is trying to create a mini-snarl by provoking conflict between the gods, and as an extension of that theory that I'm not willing to bet on, I think the ending would be so much easier to write if they got their mini-snarl and escaped, rather than Rich having to cram in confronting and defeating it while the rest of the plot is going on. In that case, it's going to be in the sequel.

It can't have anything to do with Elan's secret plan because there's no way Elan could've known, but maybe someone will be inspired by the idea. One way or another.

The plan with Sabine won‘t work, simply because Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing. I like the Hamlet plan, though it will be difficult to protect the players.

I think if we get another story on the western continent - and that‘s a big if - it will be a prequel, not a sequel. I seem to remember Rich saying that he will do something different when the OotS story is done.

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Originally Posted by Joerg

I think if we get another story on the western continent - and that‘s a big if - it will be a prequel, not a sequel. I seem to remember Rich saying that he will do something different when the OotS story is done.

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What if it doesn't star the Order of the Stick? That was my first guess, before I remembered the Order Stickier comment.

A party is mostly filled out: Amun-Zora, Enor, Gannji, Ian, Geoff, and maybe Sabine for color, as someone who really hates Tarquin.

It's not a balanced party like Rich usually presents so I'm not confident.

Would that count as something different? It's at least a better take on, "This is not a thing that's going to happen."

I highly doubt we'll get a sequel, and if we do it's almost certainly not going to be about Tarquin - if only because that would undercut the whole deal with Tarquin not being the main villain. I expect we'll just get a brief reference to the fact that he got defeated off-screen - that's how you really defeat Tarquin, as anything involving a big thing to take him down ultimately means he wins. So I think "might have been" isn't so unreasonable here.

I don't think a throwaway gag by Elan is particularly compelling evidence that an actual sequel is really on the way. Especially since just focusing on other characters doesn't really feel like the Giant doing something different.

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Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox

Rich introduced a complicated plot involving the Vector Legion, lizardfolk, and either dinosaurs or dragons in the May 2020 calendar page that definitely does not fit in the pages we have left.

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Sometimes, a picture is just a picture.

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Originally Posted by Joerg

I think if we get another story on the western continent - and that‘s a big if - it will be a prequel, not a sequel. I seem to remember Rich saying that he will do something different when the OotS story is done.

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I seem to remember that also.

Let's see:
Star Wars prequels? Not great.
Star Trek prequels? Just plain bad.
Can someone name a prequel movie that was good?

While Rich has his own muse and style, and is thus not by default doomed to failure if he chose to do a prequel (I found SoD tepid at best) I got the feeling when I read the above mentioned comment that his next creative effort would not have to do with the OotSverse.

(Honestly, I think Rich could write a decent screenplay ...)

I sure hope so it involves two of them in bed, steamy.

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Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast

Can someone name a prequel movie that was good?

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Willy Wonka (2023)

I'm skeptical that Elan's plan is for Tarquin to get beaten off screen (even if that's how the Giant handles it). Tarquin is intelligent, resourceful, narratively savvy, and determined. If Elan won't bring the climax to him, he will bring the climax to Elan. Tarquin can only be beaten off screen as a canonical strategy if he allows it.

I don't think Elan's plan is likely to include Sabine. I think it's possible Sabine, entirely independently, takes Tarquin out of the picture as the 'pleasure' she's mixing into her business for the fiends, but if that doesn't happen I would assume whatever Elan's plan is goes off without a hitch.

I'd agree that the plan is likely taking him down offscreen. I could also see it potentially involving treating one of the other Vector Legionaries as the real big bad of the plotline and reducing Tarquin to a mere lieutenant to promote infighting within the group and turn Tarquin's narrative role from "Overlord' to "Starscream"

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Originally Posted by yes

Tarquin can only be beaten off screen as a canonical strategy if he allows it.

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Tarquin didn't exactly allow himself to be thrown off an airship. Tarquin gets caught up in his preconceptions of what the narrative should be that he abandons genre-savvy in favour of trying to bend the narrative around himself as the most important character, which is an exploitable weakness.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

I don't think Elan's plan is likely to include Sabine. I think it's possible Sabine, entirely independently, takes Tarquin out of the picture as the 'pleasure' she's mixing into her business for the fiends, but if that doesn't happen I would assume whatever Elan's plan is goes off without a hitch.

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I think it's possible Sabine would join up with Amon-Zora. I doubt Elan's plan takes that into account, though.

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Tarquin didn't exactly allow himself to be thrown off an airship. Tarquin gets caught up in his preconceptions of what the narrative should be that he abandons genre-savvy in favour of trying to bend the narrative around himself as the most important character, which is an exploitable weakness.

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Yes, Tarquin isn't as clever as he thinks he is. He's set himself up to be defeated by a ragtag bunch of misfits he's personally wronged, without even considering that they could be a threat. He's painted a huge target on himself, which is exactly what his scheme was supposed to avoid in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast

Star Wars prequels? Not great.
Star Trek prequels? Just plain bad.
Can someone name a prequel movie that was good?

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You're not a fan of The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly?

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Originally Posted by Peelee

You're not a fan of The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly?

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It's the weakest of the Dollars films by a good margin. You could cut an hour from it and it would still drag.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

It's the weakest of the Dollars films by a good margin.

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The criteria wasn't "better than the original". It was "good prequel".

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

You could cut an hour from it and it would still drag.

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I disagree that it drags.

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Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast

Can someone name a prequel movie that was good?

While Rich has his own muse and style, and is thus not by default doomed to failure if he chose to do a prequel (I found SoD tepid at best) I got the feeling when I read the above mentioned comment that his next creative effort would not have to do with the OotSverse.

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OtOoPC and SoD are pretty early works. Especially "Origin of PCs", that was still pretty deep in that "Pop culture reference and D&D jokes" style that didn't age so well.

But I think the 3 prequel stories (Spoiler Alert, Peer Pressure and How the Paladin Got His Scar) in Good Deed Gone Unpunished are among Rich's best work. Really solid stories about "secondary" characters, some of which had already met a grisly fate in the main webcomic.
They were about characters Rich actually likes, though, and that love can be felt throughout the stories' emotional beats. I don't know if a prequel about another party of bad guys would inspire the same kind of work.

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Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast

While Rich has his own muse and style, and is thus not by default doomed to failure if he chose to do a prequel (I found SoD tepid at best) I got the feeling when I read the above mentioned comment that his next creative effort would not have to do with the OotSverse.

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The first two prequels are showing their age a bit, but they're as good as the comic was during that time, but Good Deeds Gone Unpunished is some of the best Order of the Stick out there.

Honestly if we ever do see what Elan’s plan was I imagine it’ll be in something like a GDGU-esque side book for the Linear Guild and the Vector Legion (and maybe one or two other Western Continent characters).

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Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast

While Rich has his own muse and style, and is thus not by default doomed to failure if he chose to do a prequel (I found SoD tepid at best)

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I think this is the kind of thing where you have to separate your own personal opinion from the broader reception. SoD is a fan favourite, long held by many as the best OotS material out there. While of course you don't have to like it yourself, it's kinda weird to dismiss it entirely and suggest it wouldn't count as a good prequel based solely on your own subjective opinion

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Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast

Let's see:
Star Wars prequels? Not great.
Star Trek prequels? Just plain bad.
Can someone name a prequel movie that was good?

(Honestly, I think Rich could write a decent screenplay ...)

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The Godfather II called.

Rogue One and Red Dragon were good.

Re: screenplays - I would be very surprised if he could. Not because of anything other than it being such a decidedly different medium. Serial webcomic probably leans more towards screenplay than novel prose, but I think they are just two distinct skillsets. High jump and jump shooting both involve jumping, but no reason to think Fosbury could rain threes or Steph could clear 7'.

That's why, I think, Martin was valuable in helping HBO's GoT but King books virtually never make great films despite being great writing. One has years of experience working with TV and film, the other doesn't.

- M

Not sure that I would technically call Godfather II a prequel given its split story. It sure had elements, but the story still moved forward in time and I think the main part of the story was watching Al Pacino descend into full on mobsterism (I made up a word!)

The second Indiana Jones movie is often considered a prequel because it took place temporally before Raiders of the Lost Ark. Now, whether you think that movie is "good" is, of course, another issue. I wouldn't consider it bad per se, but it sure didn't age well.

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Originally Posted by dmc91356

The second Indiana Jones movie is often considered a prequel because it took place temporally before Raiders of the Lost Ark.

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I assume "temporarily" means "chronologically" here. And yes, that typically is what makes a story a prequel.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

I assume "temporarily" means "chronologically" here. And yes, that typically is what makes a story a prequel.

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dmc said "temporally", not "temporarily". So yes, chronologically.

I too am confused why that would mean Temple of Doom "is often considered a prequel" to Raiders, rather than "meets the exact definition of a prequel"...

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Originally Posted by mucat

dmc said "temporally", not "temporarily". So yes, chronologically.

I too am confused why that would mean Temple of Doom "is often considered a prequel" to Raiders, rather than "meets the exact definition of a prequel"...

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Whoopsie, need to get me reading eyes fixed.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

I don't think Elan's plan is likely to include Sabine. I think it's possible Sabine, entirely independently, takes Tarquin out of the picture as the 'pleasure' she's mixing into her business for the fiends, but if that doesn't happen I would assume whatever Elan's plan is goes off without a hitch.

I'd agree that the plan is likely taking him down offscreen. I could also see it potentially involving treating one of the other Vector Legionaries as the real big bad of the plotline and reducing Tarquin to a mere lieutenant to promote infighting within the group and turn Tarquin's narrative role from "Overlord' to "Starscream"

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Could Sabine be the real villain? How about the IFCC?

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Originally Posted by mucat

dmc said "temporally", not "temporarily". So yes, chronologically.

I too am confused why that would mean Temple of Doom "is often considered a prequel" to Raiders, rather than "meets the exact definition of a prequel"...

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Normally, prequels are offered as a means of explaining how we got to where we were in the main story, rather than, say, a completely independent story that really adds no explanation and could just as easily happen after as before, which is how I rank Temple of Doom. There is nothing in that movie that really does anything to add to Raiders or, for that matter, the one after Temple of Doom that I have mostly stricken from my memory. I was browsing definitions and found this sentence in one of them, which I kinda like: "A prequel is a work that forms part of a backstory to the preceding work."

Admittedly, I haven't watched Temple of Doom in, well, probably longer than many people on these forums have been alive (gah, I'm old), but I did not feel that it lent anything to the ongoing story and was, in actuality, a complete one-off. Nothing added to the lore, no questions answered, no neato explanations of anything depicted in Raiders, etc. So that was my thought process.

And, yes, temporally. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox

Could Sabine be the real villain? How about the IFCC?

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Sabine and the IFCC aren't working with Tarquin. I think it's very likely that Sabine kills Tarquin at some point, but for the "deny Tarquin his place as the big bad of the vector legion" plan it'd be one of his fellow conspirators. I was thinking Shoulderpads Guy, he's got commander vibes and I think it's a fun idea if in-universe Tarquin being overshadowed in memory by someone who wasn't even important enough to the story we saw to have a name, but Laurin and Miron would both probably work. Malack would have too, but he's sadly double deceased which makes him less viable.

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Originally Posted by dmc91356

Admittedly, I haven't watched Temple of Doom in, well, probably longer than many people on these forums have been alive (gah, I'm old), but I did not feel that it lent anything to the ongoing story and was, in actuality, a complete one-off. Nothing added to the lore, no questions answered, no neato explanations of anything depicted in Raiders, etc. So that was my thought process.

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This is true of all three Indiana Jones movies, they're very episodic and can be watched in functionally any order with no changes, but if we're not counting Doom as a prequel we shouldn't count Crusade as a sequel. I can see a logic to that, but it's not how the words are conventionally used.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

didn't exactly allow himself to be thrown off an airship. Tarquin gets caught up in his preconceptions of what the narrative should be that he abandons genre-savvy in favour of trying to bend the narrative around himself as the most important character, which is an exploitable weakness.

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I have a very different take away: That even after Elan and co escaped on an airship, he found a way to continue the scene within seconds. Yes, they then thwarted him on the airship and got away, but that happened while he was sharing center stage with Elan, and not while he was dueling with a secondary (or dare I say tertiary) character. He employed everything at his disposal to get front and center, and unless he lacks the means to do it again (in which case, he's already lost), he'll do it again before he lets something takes him down off-screen.

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Originally Posted by yes

I have a very different take away: That even after Elan and co escaped on an airship, he found a way to continue the scene within seconds. Yes, they then thwarted him on the airship and got away, but that happened while he was sharing center stage with Elan, and not while he was dueling with a secondary (or dare I say tertiary) character.

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Fair point, if you ignore that Laurin got them onto that airship and that the actual climactic duel was between Laurin and V after the wizard effortlessly took Tarquin out of the fight. I am not inclined to do that.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

Fair point, if you ignore that Laurin got them onto that airship and that the actual climactic duel was between Laurin and V after the wizard effortlessly took Tarquin out of the fight. I am not inclined to do that.

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And then, after throwing his impotent tantrum, Tarquin had to be rescued by Laurin and even then she took advantage of the situation to get her favour.

EDIT: Oh! And how did V win that fight? With the help of tactical advice from Sabine. Because Tarquin killed Nale.

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Originally Posted by yes

I have a very different take away: That even after Elan and co escaped on an airship, he found a way to continue the scene within seconds. Yes, they then thwarted him on the airship and got away, but that happened while he was sharing center stage with Elan, and not while he was dueling with a secondary (or dare I say tertiary) character. He employed everything at his disposal to get front and center, and unless he lacks the means to do it again (in which case, he's already lost), he'll do it again before he lets something takes him down off-screen.

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I think this analysis misses that Tarquin wasn't meant to be a nobody, he was meant to be an early boss, a B-list villain long before the fight against the actual big bad in the finale, a Kubota or a Vamp Durkon rather than a Xykon. And that's exactly what he got - and what he tried so hard to avoid. Of course the position still comes with a fair bit of attention and spotlight.