Why for PC when the NPC/Monsters don't?
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Why for PC when the NPC/Monsters don't?
Technically they can we just tend to skip over it for convenienceQuote:
Originally Posted by DMSenko
The PHB even has a section on this.
My take on it is that the reason death saves get skipped is to streamline combat. once a monster is reduced to 0, the players will move to finish it off, wasting time that could have been spent on the scene, or instead the DM will have to keep dealing with the repercussions of the players not finishing their enemies off, which increases the DM's workload massively for often minimal payoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB p. 198 Monsters and Death
For the same reason that a high level human can get tagged with a greatsword from a giant and be perfectly functional; D&D is a storytelling game, so the characters that are more important get more plot armor. And inversely, those that don't matter that much don't get as much, or get killed of quicker to move on.
Yeah that's why I skip it. It's to keep things moving. Death saves for enemy NPCs only crops up for me when the enemy is particularly important, or the enemy force has healing capabilities - they can Healing Word a downed person just as much as the players can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualight
Strictly, the streamlining does make it easier on players than giving death saves to everyone all the time. The chance of a nat 20, and having to spend attacks/actions to finish them would give those still standing more turns to live.
But if I want things to be more dangerous it's probably easier to just toss another dice of damage on every creature than do death saves.
In short, because PCs are special and nothing else is. Functionally, it's so players have a safety net when things don't go their way.
Personally, I think it's the worst thing about the game pre-Tasha's. [GROGNARD ACTIVATED] Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous. Characters should die and die often. It shouldn't be celebrated but it darn sure should be expected. Back in my day, if your character dropped to 0 hp, they died. Too bad, so sad, move on.
As long as you're open and up front about it with your players during session zero and they all consent, having a "0HP = Death, no saves" houserule is a fine way to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBeowulf
I've never done it with 5e games because most of my players were new to the hobby and it was part of how they learned to play... I mean, it's right there on the character sheet. I'm not going to take something away from them just because I'm old and grumpy. I save my house rules for limiting pop-up healing, recovering from exhaustion, awesome criticals, and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyren
Some of them are in a BECMI game I'm running and it took 4 character deaths for them to change their style. They now have the appropriate level of respect for the unknown.
I'm glad you acknowledge that it's a preference thing and not some kind of universal better option.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBeowulf
I'm also glad that you're getting in a BECMI game that's as lethal as you like!
Hope you and the players are having an awesome time. :)
Because PCs dying sucks and is not fun. Monsters croaking is fun. Never let not-fun get in the way of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by DMSenko
Occasionally, an NPC with pertinent information winds up getting perished (often by the PCs). So death saves can be used a safeguard to preserve the plot. Otherwise, let it all burn.
I do like that they are saves, and thus it's possible to, for example, get proficiency in them (see: Monk) or add the Paladin's Charisma to them.
What brings up the oddity that it's a saving throw that isn't tied to an ability score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Segev
Same reason Batman is invincible, the hero gets a level of plot armor.
Generally because dying sucks, and the process for creating a new character is a pain in the ****, and the pain is more the higher level you are. The PCs are given multiple chances to not die, as well as providing multiple opportunities for party members to save them. D&D doesn't want PCs to die, but you will if you are incredibly unlucky and/or have poor group dynamics. Now, alternatively you could say that players don't get Death Saves...But I wouldn't go down that route unless it's common for your table to have multiple backup characters - not just in mind, but ready to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by DMSenko
But also I don't like ultra lethal games anyway. It just trains players to not be invested in their own characters (i.e; Leads to bad roleplaying) and ultimately leads to an arms race.
NPCs "just die" because no-one cares. If the DM really cares about it, they have the option for a creature to go to Death Saves as per the PHB. Very, very, very rarely are players going to declare for non-lethal damage, because keeping hostile creatures alive is almost always more trouble than its worth - especially if the creature is non-Humanoid and/or can Misty Step. If you don't want the creature alive, just fast forward to dead. The game is easier that way.
TL;DR. Because D&D isn't supposed to be hard. The game is rigged in the players' favour - including Death Saves being 10+, not 11+.
Logistics mostly. If I as the GM am running a combat with 3 bruisers as a front line, 15 skirmishers with bows and a couple of spellcasters to run interference, that's a lot of bodies and abilities to keep track of already.
Also running death saves for all those creatures adds a lot of logistical overhead for not much payoff.
That said, the game doesn't break if NPC's get death saves, you can absolutely run things that way if you like.
You can use a modified version of undead fortitude or relentless if you want to add some form of it for NPCs with less bookwork.Quote:
Originally Posted by rel
Incidentally, there is an overall 59.5% chance of stabilizing at all with the standard death save rules and assuming no external interference nor bonuses to the save. That is including odds of getting a natural 20 on any of the first four rolls.
Round up to 60%, and you can save yourself rolling the odds out for any given NPC you care enough to check for after combat is over by rolling a d20 and saying he died if he gets an 8 or less.
The Monster Manual also establishes this as a default rule, while the PHB couches it as something "most DMs" do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster Manual, page 7
Basically this. DSTs are a mechanic meant to relay the metagame concept that the PCs are special. This means, among other things, that despite the memes that circulate around, that a DM who has "intelligent monsters double tapping downed PCs" is metagaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBeowulf
Remove the "PC pops up on a 20" rule and you can simply declare that everyone gets death saving throws, and we're abstracting away the PCs going arround and putting a sword through the throat of every down enemy, because that's not all that heroic.
Monsters rarely have healing powers, so other than the chance of a 20, it really doesn't matter much if they roll death saving throws.
When discussing NPCs and death saves it's rarely about them popping back up when you don't want them to as much as them not dying when you want them to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
Outside of a few very specific spells and class features that allow you to gather not necessarily complete information from the dead, knocking somebody unconscious with a melee attack rather than killing them is one of the best ways to potentially gather information about a opposing Force.
Same for keeping NPCs and Pet focused tagalongs to cause unnecessary strife because of the math rocks not being friendly.
But for the ones that DO have healing, the distinction is important. You can't cast Healig Word on a corpse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
I get the point, but having played a Cleric that was on death saves, and DM'd a Cleric in the same boat in a different game that both managed to roll a nat 20 and save the day, I wouldn't use, nor be happy to play in a game that used that rule. (Not like, not play at all, but note my discontent in session zero and chive on.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
If NPCs didn't get the nat 20 rule (maybe it counts as two saves instead), but PCs still did, that's something I could get behind.
OTOH, I've never had an issue with the 'why' of the original rule so I'm perfectly fine playing NPCs die at 0 outside extenuating circumstances.