Homebrewing a class... need advice

So you all know me: still need work on building homebrew, (or some of you at least) but could get there with some work. I need advice. I'm making a Caster class, called the Cardweaver, whose gimmick is that they use playing cards to amplify/change their spellcasting. They are a 2/3rds caster and get up to 7th level spells, no cantrips. I'm pretty far into it, still need to make a spell list and some of the non-subclass abilities, but I need help. What spells would be appropriate? Kind of making a 'gambler' sort of class, skewing advantage and disadvantage with an ability called Push your Luck, basically a few times a long rest: You can give yourself advantage on the next d20 roll, but you get disadvantage on the d20 roll after that you make.

So, any advice for this?

What kind of caster are we thinking? Nuker? Utility? Support?
Utility/support feels like the best fit to me based on your description. In this case I'd be putting a lot of Abjuration and Divination. Divination type things and having some type of extra sensory effects blends well into Luck bending. Abjuration also feels like it twists the outcome of things with defensive magic. Enchantment works too as the mind warping effects can be flavoured as luck twisting as well.

Agreed w/Mada, divination spells would be my #1 suggestion, with abjuration and enchantment as secondary schools. Unfortunately not every list has equal rep (there are a lot of evocation spells) so you'll probably need to branch out beyond those, but look for spells that have good matching flavor or fit the class's tactical niche. As an example, the Artificer (also a 2/3 caster) has 18 first-level spells. One each of illusion, necromancy, and conjuration, 2 divination, 3 evocation, 4 abjuration, and 6 transmutation. Half their list comes from their preferred schools (trans & abj), but they still have a representative smattering of spells from all the schools.

For 1st level, I'd imagine something like this:

• Expeditious Retreat
• False Life
• Silent Image
• Illusory Script
• Disguise Self
• Color Spray
• Magic Missile
• Faerie Fire
• Sleep
• Command
• Charm Person
• Identify
• Detect Poison and Disease
• Detect Magic
• Comprehend Languages
• Fog Cloud
• Shield
• Alarm
• Absorb Elements

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Originally Posted by Just to Browse

Agreed w/Mada, divination spells would be my #1 suggestion, with abjuration and enchantment as secondary schools. Unfortunately not every list has equal rep (there are a lot of evocation spells) so you'll probably need to branch out beyond those, but look for spells that have good matching flavor or fit the class's tactical niche. As an example, the Artificer (also a 2/3 caster) has 18 first-level spells. One each of illusion, necromancy, and conjuration, 2 divination, 3 evocation, 4 abjuration, and 6 transmutation. Half their list comes from their preferred schools (trans & abj), but they still have a representative smattering of spells from all the schools.

For 1st level, I'd imagine something like this:

• Expeditious Retreat
• False Life
• Silent Image
• Illusory Script
• Disguise Self
• Color Spray
• Magic Missile
• Faerie Fire
• Sleep
• Command
• Charm Person
• Identify
• Detect Poison and Disease
• Detect Magic
• Comprehend Languages
• Fog Cloud
• Shield
• Alarm
• Absorb Elements

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I unironically love magic missle as the attack that never misses because you're so lucky.

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Originally Posted by TheHalfAasimar

So you all know me: still need work on building homebrew, (or some of you at least) but could get there with some work. I need advice. I'm making a Caster class, called the Cardweaver, whose gimmick is that they use playing cards to amplify/change their spellcasting. They are a 2/3rds caster and get up to 7th level spells, no cantrips. I'm pretty far into it, still need to make a spell list and some of the non-subclass abilities, but I need help. What spells would be appropriate? Kind of making a 'gambler' sort of class, skewing advantage and disadvantage with an ability called Push your Luck, basically a few times a long rest: You can give yourself advantage on the next d20 roll, but you get disadvantage on the d20 roll after that you make.

So, any advice for this?

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What subclasses do you have in mind? To what extent might subclass spell lists take the weight?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrStabby

What subclasses do you have in mind? To what extent might subclass spell lists take the weight?

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There are no subclass spell lists, they just mostly mess around with how you use their respective card suits, because they're based around that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheHalfAasimar

There are no subclass spell lists, they just mostly mess around with how you use their respective card suits, because they're based around that.

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So are suits like schools of magic?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrStabby

So are suits like schools of magic?

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Yeah, kind of. They amplify specifically the suit of card that they're based around. Like the Hearts subclass, Palace of Hearts, amplifies healing magic and you can use a Hearts card to do fun stuff.

If it were me, I’d focus on summons and buffs/de buffs for variety of “random things and probability”

Use the warlock progression. It does take you to 9th level spells, but limits your top end by reducing final number of 6/7 level slots.

The reason I say this is to insure you get a variety of summon options by level 5.

Assign creature and damage types to suits, maybe:
Heart-Fey, radiant
Spade- Undead, necrotic
Diamond- Dragon, force
Club- Aberration, psychic

Grant an enhanced familiar that counts as Self. So yes you can put spirit guardians on it but it will still be made of glass so that’s not its best use.

Assign buffed metamagic effects to some cards (like maximized instead of empowered) and make some cards other spells entirely (like summons or heals), so when you cast a spell you might either get some nice boost or a different spell entirely but not something with no value. Maybe a card that returns the spell slot when the spell ends.

You can use d4/d12 to roll for suit and card value Reserve “Kings or Aces” for a heart of the cards style ass-pull Charisma/day feature. Or you can just use cards with kings set aside.

I might use a lot of this to finish my 5e Fateweaver class. Thank you for the opportunity to be inspired!

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Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit

If it were me, I’d focus on summons and buffs/de buffs for variety of “random things and probability”

Use the warlock progression. It does take you to 9th level spells, but limits your top end by reducing final number of 6/7 level slots.

The reason I say this is to insure you get a variety of summon options by level 5.

Assign creature and damage types to suits, maybe:
Heart-Fey, radiant
Spade- Undead, necrotic
Diamond- Dragon, force
Club- Aberration, psychic

Grant an enhanced familiar that counts as Self. So yes you can put spirit guardians on it but it will still be made of glass so that’s not its best use.

Assign buffed metamagic effects to some cards (like maximized instead of empowered) and make some cards other spells entirely (like summons or heals), so when you cast a spell you might either get some nice boost or a different spell entirely but not something with no value. Maybe a card that returns the spell slot when the spell ends.

You can use d4/d12 to roll for suit and card value Reserve “Kings or Aces” for a heart of the cards style ass-pull Charisma/day feature. Or you can just use cards with kings set aside.

I might use a lot of this to finish my 5e Fateweaver class. Thank you for the opportunity to be inspired!

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Oh, the way it works is that you use an actual deck of cards/hand to affect your spells. Basically:

Aces change damage type based on suit:
Aces - Healing in area
Diamonds - Radiant or Slashing, your choice
Spades - Necrotic or Piercing, your choice
Clubs - Bludgeoning or Poison, your choice

2-10 spell of the card's rank's level or +rank to damage/healing/length whatever if you don't have spells of that level.

Jack - + prof to damage if the target isn't immune/resistant
Queen - Undercuts resistance
King - Undercuts resistance + immune BUT - prof to damage/healing/effect/time/whatever

5e doesn't have 2/3 casters. For a good reason: at low levels the difference compared to full casters is almost undetectable, and at high levels you probably aren't playing the game anyhow.

Commit to it being a 1/2 caster, maybe rounded up like an artificer.

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Originally Posted by Yakk

5e doesn't have 2/3 casters. For a good reason: at low levels the difference compared to full casters is almost undetectable, and at high levels you probably aren't playing the game anyhow.

Commit to it being a 1/2 caster, maybe rounded up like an artificer.

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I see...


I think that they'll have spell slots of 1-7th level, but they'll only have a spell list of 1-5th level, forcing them to upcast if they want to use spell slots of a higher level.

Again, no. Don't add a new mechanic for no purpose. 5e doesn't have 2/3 casters, and nothing about this class makes it required to be a 2/3 caster.

Artificer added "1/2 rounded up" for the practical concrete reason that they wanted it to be spellcasting from level 1. (This also means that the artificer has very few level 1 features other than spellcasting, as the leftover power budget for a level 1 PC with 2 level 1 slots is very tiny.)

Distinguishing a 2/3 caster from a 1/2 rounded up caster before T4 is difficult. So they play the same way. The only difference ends up being a slightly faster spell slot progression and a higher max slot level of spells, both of which are mechanical details *not* thematic ones.

Here are the "caster level" progressions of 1/3, 1/2, artificer, 2/3 and 1/1 spellcasters over the first 10 levels:

001112223
011223344
112233445
112334556
123456789

2/3 (rounded to closest) is completely equal to 1/2 rounded up except gets +1 caster level at level 6.

Mapping to max slot level:

001111112
011112222
111122223
111222333
112233445

2/3 gets 3rd level slots at level 7 instead of 9, and 2nd level slots at 4 instead of 5.

The differences are back-ended into levels 1-10, and even moreso into levels 11-20. Meanwhile, class identity should be acquired and maintained at levels 1-5, with the rest of the levels fleshing it out.

In short, take the exact same plan, and replace "2/3 progression" with "1/2 progression, rounded up" and you get a class that should work without introducing a new spell slot progression to the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yakk

Again, no. Don't add a new mechanic for no purpose. 5e doesn't have 2/3 casters, and nothing about this class makes it required to be a 2/3 caster.

Artificer added "1/2 rounded up" for the practical concrete reason that they wanted it to be spellcasting from level 1. (This also means that the artificer has very few level 1 features other than spellcasting, as the leftover power budget for a level 1 PC with 2 level 1 slots is very tiny.)

Distinguishing a 2/3 caster from a 1/2 rounded up caster before T4 is difficult. So they play the same way. The only difference ends up being a slightly faster spell slot progression and a higher max slot level of spells, both of which are mechanical details *not* thematic ones.

Here are the "caster level" progressions of 1/3, 1/2, artificer, 2/3 and 1/1 spellcasters over the first 10 levels:

001112223
011223344
112233445
112334556
123456789

2/3 (rounded to closest) is completely equal to 1/2 rounded up except gets +1 caster level at level 6.

Mapping to max slot level:

001111112
011112222
111122223
111222333
112233445

2/3 gets 3rd level slots at level 7 instead of 9, and 2nd level slots at 4 instead of 5.

The differences are back-ended into levels 1-10, and even moreso into levels 11-20. Meanwhile, class identity should be acquired and maintained at levels 1-5, with the rest of the levels fleshing it out.

In short, take the exact same plan, and replace "2/3 progression" with "1/2 progression, rounded up" and you get a class that should work without introducing a new spell slot progression to the game.

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Oh, that is a better idea. Interesting... interesting indeed.

I wouldn't say to not use a 2/3 casting progression. Do what you need to do to make the class work.

You may have some powerful high level abilities lines up and want to avoid these and level 7/8/9 spells. You may have boosts to spells planned that get out of hand with more spells per day.

Do what's needed to make it work. On the other hand, there is a cost to the cognitive load of doing something differently. Do it if needed, if you can make the idea work with a more standard progression then it's worh doing.

I would also flag that assessing both fun and power is not going to be easy. At later levels you will be getting spells later than other members of the party - that cool banishment or wall of force you get will have seen some play before you pick it up (or whatever spells you get on the class list). To my mind, you lose some of the fun of the play experience if you pick some of these things after your peers.

The power side is another issue. With a 2/3 progression you will have a similar experience as with a full caster for a big span of the game - the ability to have a well placed spell trivialise an encounter.

I would strongly suggest working to articulate exactly what you want the class to do and how the 2/3 progression works towards that aim. With clarity on its objectives and what it contributes it should support the rest of the class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrStabby

I wouldn't say to not use a 2/3 casting progression. Do what you need to do to make the class work.

You may have some powerful high level abilities lines up and want to avoid these and level 7/8/9 spells. You may have boosts to spells planned that get out of hand with more spells per day.

Do what's needed to make it work. On the other hand, there is a cost to the cognitive load of doing something differently. Do it if needed, if you can make the idea work with a more standard progression then it's worh doing.

I would also flag that assessing both fun and power is not going to be easy. At later levels you will be getting spells later than other members of the party - that cool banishment or wall of force you get will have seen some play before you pick it up (or whatever spells you get on the class list). To my mind, you lose some of the fun of the play experience if you pick some of these things after your peers.

The power side is another issue. With a 2/3 progression you will have a similar experience as with a full caster for a big span of the game - the ability to have a well placed spell trivialise an encounter.

I would strongly suggest working to articulate exactly what you want the class to do and how the 2/3 progression works towards that aim. With clarity on its objectives and what it contributes it should support the rest of the class.

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See, my goal is to make it kind of a blaster/healer (your choice) who either does really big damage to one target, or does a lot of healing to one character with their spells, and while they're more limited, you can use cards to make them more effective in multiple ways, so high-damage, low-resource, as well as playing around with luck a bit so that most of your spells work while they last.

Sounds like your benchmark might be the paladin. Can dump a lot of healing into an action, can smite for huge single target damage. I might suggest you consciously try and find mechanical ways to differentiate from the paladin.

I would suggest that the paladin is about as good as you can safely get for burst damage so matching that and having more of a healing presence (whilst sacrificing defensive abilities like heavy armour proficiency and aura of protection) might work.

I think the speedier spell progression might help there.

The other class to measure against could be celestial warlock. Eldritch blast can be strong single target damage and they can heal a bit as well. The warlock spell progression might also feel similar to 2/3ds progression. It's a bit weaker than the spellcasting ability - especially the restrictions around mystic arcana.

With that in mind - could be worth using the warlock spellcasting progression to reduce cognitive load, manage that power profile and have a framework that leaves a lot of spare space for flavourful and powerful abilities?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrStabby

Sounds like your benchmark might be the paladin. Can dump a lot of healing into an action, can smite for huge single target damage. I might suggest you consciously try and find mechanical ways to differentiate from the paladin.

I would suggest that the paladin is about as good as you can safely get for burst damage so matching that and having more of a healing presence (whilst sacrificing defensive abilities like heavy armour proficiency and aura of protection) might work.

I think the speedier spell progression might help there.

The other class to measure against could be celestial warlock. Eldritch blast can be strong single target damage and they can heal a bit as well. The warlock spell progression might also feel similar to 2/3ds progression. It's a bit weaker than the spellcasting ability - especially the restrictions around mystic arcana.

With that in mind - could be worth using the warlock spellcasting progression to reduce cognitive load, manage that power profile and have a framework that leaves a lot of spare space for flavourful and powerful abilities?

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I like that. I mean, I did start thinking about a warlock-esque 'total spell slot' system, which was basically identical to spell points, but the effective spell level was how many slots were used up, so it had 2/3///warlock progression, while still having a 1-7 spell list.