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Hello everyone,
I'm building a system to run Masks of Nylarathotep. Does anyone have a good list of commonly seen firearms that existed circa 1925? Bonus points if said list included both civilian and military models or reflects regional availability (different weapons are more common in Kenya than Shanghai etc).
I want names of weapons so I can do a bit more research on them. Ideally, I'm looking for 2-4 examples of each class of firearm.
As always, thanks in advance!
The best source for you would be to pick up GURPS High-Tech Pulp Guns Volume One and Volume 2. Even if the mechanical parts are useless to you, there's a fair bit of background on a lot of weapons.
An example entry:
Note that there are some obvious fictional elements there, but that shouldn't matter much for your purposes.Quote:
Auto-Ordnance Model 1921, .45 ACP (USA, 1921-1928)
General John Thompson – who coined the term “submachine gun” – began designing his famous weapon during WWI, but it wasn’t completed until 1921. The “Tommy gun” was soon adopted in small numbers by prison guards and the police departments of most major American cities, including Boston, Chicago, New York, and San Francisco. They weren’t much used until the 1930s, though, most agencies considering them too heavy and dangerous. For example, the Chicago police issued one per detective car beginning in 1927, but removed them from service a few years later.
Other early users of the Thompson submachine gun (TSMG) were state police forces such as those of Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, and West Virginia, as well as the Texas Rangers. The U.S. Army didn’t buy it, but many National Guard forces did, for example those of Connecticut, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Missouri, and New York. From 1927, the U.S. Marines employed a few hundred guns in China, Nicaragua, and at home for the protection of mail trains. They would also have used it in the government raid on Innsmouth (MA) in 1928 . . .
Enthusiastic civilian buyers included banks, detective agencies, and mining corporations. Company ads showed a cowboy using the “anti-bandit gun” to mow down rustlers, but few customers could be attracted this way. In the hands of such high profile criminals as Al Capone’s mob and John Dillinger, though, the TSMG became known as the weapon of mobsters and bank robbers – the “Chicago Piano” or “Chopper.” The “Gun that made the Twenties Roar” was first used by gangsters in 1925 during the Chicago Beer Wars, and made its most ominous appearance in the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre of 1929.
During the 1930s, Dillinger’s small gang routinely carried around more machine guns in Gladstone bags than the entire Indiana State Police possessed. Small numbers were exported to foreign police forces such as the Havana police, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Toronto police, and Shanghai Municipal Police (see GURPS Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems, p. 12). Only 15,000 were made, but the
design was widely copied in China from the late 1920s on. The original Model 1921 (called the Model 1921A from 1927) had excellent sights and was quite accurate. It could use both box and drum magazines. The box held 20 rounds ($30, 1.3 lbs.); the drum, either 50 rounds (as in the table) or 100 rounds (Malf. 16, -1 Bulk, $274, 8.5 lbs.). The larger drum was unpopular due to its bulk and unreliability, and was no longer offered by 1927; only 5,000 were ever made. (When Chicago gangster Earl “Hymie” Weiss was gunned down in 1926, the 100-round drum used jammed after 39 shots.) The Thompson always came with a 20-round mag; many customers bought it with four 20-rounders and a 50-round drum. The standard web belt had two ammo pouches (p. 33), one holding four magazines and the other a drum.
A buckshot round was briefly offered for the weapon; Dmg1d+1 pi, Acc 2, Range 35/750, RoF 13¥5, Rcl 1. This proved too lethal for riot control, and was replaced by a birdshot round.
The birdshot shell was popular with police and strikebreakers,but required a special 18-round magazine ($30, 1.2 lbs.): Dmg 1d-3(0.5) pi-, Acc 3, Range 12/230, RoF 13¥120, Shots 18+1(3),
Rcl 1. Also available already from 1921 were both tracer and incendiary bullets (High-Tech, p. 175). Despite – or because of – spectacular sales displays featuring cars set aflame with a
Tommy, these were little used by official users, but adventurers might find them helpful against supernatural creatures vulnerable (p. B161) to heat or flame. In 1925, Al Capone’s mentor Johnny Torrio was shot with bullets “poisoned” with garlic . . .
Without the easily detachable 1.75-lb. shoulder stock (which takes three Ready maneuvers to remove or affix), the Thompson could be concealed in a violin case (p. 33) or under a coat (Holdout -4): Acc 3, ST 12†, Bulk -4, Rcl 3. The stock was often removed for drive-by shootings, to allow easier operation in the confines of a car. The likes of John Dillinger and Charles “Pretty Boy” Floyd preferred to carry the gun stockless all the time, for ease of concealment, with a few stick magazines in the pockets of their suits. A canvas carrying case ($200, 1.9 lbs.) allowed the TSMG to be strapped on the back or under the armpit (this gives +1 to effective Holdout skill, and a trench-coat or similar over-garment adds a further +3). This flap-covered case held the empty gun with the stock removed, barrel down, and didn’t allow a Fast-Draw. Four pouches onthe case held 20-round magazines, a fifth the detached stock. A 0.75-lb. Maxim baffle sound suppressor (-2 to Hearing, -1 Bulk) was offered for the Thompson in 1924-1925, but was very scarce; it required the muzzle to be threaded. From 1926, the TSMG was available with a Cutts compensator (p. 30). This version was called the Model 1921AC from 1927.
Auto-Ordnance offered a pintle installation (p. B467) to mount the gun on a motorcycle sidecar. This setup was acquired by several police agencies, including the New York State Police, New York Police Department, and Shanghai Municipal Police, all using Indian Big Chief motorbikes. A similar pintle mount was offered for yachts and aircraft. The latter was tested in 1923 by the U.S. Army Air Corps on the
observer’s station of a Dayton-Wright DH-4 fighter/bomber (High-Tech, p. 233), but was rejected. At least one Potez Po 25A-2 fighter bomber was so fitted in Paraguay,
however.
In 1926, the Army tested another armament package for the DH-4; four linked Thompsons with 100-round drums, installed fixed in the lower wings (see p. B467). This setupwas also unsuccessful due to the limited power and ammo capacity aswell as the low reliability (Malf. 16). However, with real aircraft MGs being difficult and expensive to obtain, this could be an option for adventurers looking to arm
their surplus “barnstormer” biplane.
Auto-Ordnance, who advertised with the slogan “On the side of law and order,” urged their distributors to sell only to respectable buyers and always register them, but not all heeded the call – at least 80 Tommy guns were sold to people with Alternate Identity or simply a fake name and address. The company itself didn’t always ask twice. It directly sold hundreds of guns to the Irish Republican Army (IRA) via a straw firm, which resulted in a big scandal in late 1921, when Bureau of Investigations agents boarded a ship carrying 495 Thompsons en route to Ireland.
Thus, in the U.S., Britain, and many other countries, the Tommy gun was freely available to anyone who could afford it during the 1920s (pp. 4-5), but due to its notorious criminal
uses, the manufacturer stopped selling the weapon to all nonmilitary customers in 1930! This policy was revoked in 1932 to again allow sales to law enforcement agencies, penitentiaries,
district attorneys, and certified companies including banks and armored car companies, but not to individual law officers or employees of such companies – even though it was still legal
to own in many areas!
The Model 1927A (1927-1930) was a semiautomatic version of the basic Model 1921A; RoF 3, Cost $1,950, LC3. The Model 1927AC was the same gun with a Cutts compensator; RoF 3,
Cost $2,300, LC3. Offered commercially, these were much less successful than the standard weapons, and few were made. The Model 1928AC (1928-1938), adopted by the U.S. Navy
as the M1928, had a reduced cyclic rate: RoF 11, Cost $2,300. Military guns featured the Cutts compensator, but it could also be had without as the Model 1928A (Cost $1,950). All were
rebuilt Model 1921 guns, but they couldn’t use the 100-round drum any longer. The forward pistol grip was often replaced by a straight forearm (no change in stats). The U.S. Coast Guard introduced the Navy model in 1929 to combat rum runners, issuing at least one per vessel, while the U.S. Cavalry acquired one for each of their armored cars in 1932. Agents of the FBI and the U.S. Treasury department used Thompsons from 1933, and officially adopted the Model 1928AC in 1935, the FBI buying more than 115 guns for its 500-odd agents. The guards at Alcatraz and Sing Sing prisons also employed
it (see GURPS Cliffhangers, p. 28). In 1939, on the eve of WWII, the Model 1928AC was acquired in sizable numbers by France (Mle 1928), Sweden (m/39), and Yugoslavia (M28).
Fairly realistic movie scenes showcasing the Tommy gun can be seen in Howard Hawks’ Scarface (also showing the tedious filling of the drums), John Milius’ Dillinger, and Road to Perdition, while Arthur Penn’s Bonnie and Clyde, Miller’s Crossing, The Mummy Returns, and Peter Jackson’s King Kong feature memorable moments in more cinematic films.
The original spec / requirement that ended up becoming the Tommy Gun was a weapon for clearing trenches (WW I went from 1914 to 1918) but the Tommy Gun didn't quite make it in time for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnoman
Also cheaper than a tank. :smallsmile: (Also designed to break the stalemate of trench warfare ... it helped somewhat).Quote:
It was designed to break the stalemate of trench warfare of World War I, although early models did not arrive in time for actual combat.
The M1911 probably would be the most common sidearm you'd see in the states. Although police officers and federal agents would likely be carrying the Cold Official Police revolver in .38 special.
For Shotguns look to the Winchester 1897 (The Trench Gun), which has a very long and popular production history.
For Rifles, I'm not too versed on but the Remington model 8 and the Winchester 1895 are probably a good place to start for semi-auto and lever action respectively.
As I recall, the original Call of C'thulhu materials (like 1st edition) had some great information sufficient for most any group on "daily life" of the 1920's, and since it was an RPG with bad guys, that included a decent array of firearms and information about the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by NRSASD
Not much in the "what they might have in Kenya vs Shanghai" though. I seem to remember some Palladium booklets that did a nice job with huge ranges of weapons though...anyone remember those? The link doesn't show the modern one, but I really remember having one...
- M
PS: Also see a review on RPG.net for a sourcebook called "Investigator Weapons" that appears to be very much what you are seeking.
A little insight into European military grade weaponry of the period, as produced by the (occasionally by then, former) imperial powers and Italy, from east to west:
Russia (Imperial designs with continued production and use in the Sovietic first half of the century):
–Nagant M1895 (7.62 mm revolver);
–Mosin–Nagant (7.62 mm rifle);
–Fedorov Avtomat (6.5 mm freakin' battle rifle);
(Former) Austria–Hungary (weapons with continued production and/or use in successor states):
–Frommer Stop (.32/.380 semi-automatic pistol);
–Steyr M1912 (9 mm self-loader, incl. a machine pistol variant);
–Mannlicher M1895 (8.50 mm rifle);
Italy:
–Beretta M1915 (7.65/9 mm semi-automatic pistol);
–Beretta M1918 (.22/9 mm submachine gun);
–Carcano M1891 (6.5 mm rifle);
Germany (Imperial designs with continued production and use in the Weimar Era):
–Mauser C96 (7.63/9 mm semi-automatic pistol);
–Bergmann MP 18 (9 mm submachine gun);
–Mauser Geweher 98 (7.92 mm rifle);
France:
–Saint-Étienne Model 1892 (8mm revolver);
–FN M1900 (Belgian .32 semi-automatic pistol);
–Lebel Model 1886Berthier M1907 (7.5 mm rifle);
British Empire:
–Webley Self-Loading Mk. 1 (.455 semi-automatic pistol);
–Webley–Fosbery Automatic Revolver (rare .38/.455 automatic revolver);
–Lee–Enfield (.303 rifle).
The Lebel was wholly obsolete by the 1920s (it was arguably obsolete by 1897 - France made a lot of mistakes trying to rush their new superweapon into service), and was almost entirely replaced for front-line military service by the Berthier. In the time period requested, the Lebel would be found in colonial service, second-line military roles, and the civilian surplus market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metastachydium
That's fair. But hey, there's your "rifles inQuote:
Originally Posted by Gnoman
KenyaSenegal"!
Thanks everyone! All of these contributions have been really helpful and give me some good places to dig in for research. Really appreciate it!
There were hundreds of types of guns in the period just after WW1.
Two that haven't been mentioned yet are the Luger and Mauser pistols, the latter sometimes full auto but with a really short magazine (10 rounds) there may have been longer magazines for it too, but they aren't what you see in films.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_C96
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol
There are a lot of guns from the period in this story:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacco_and_Vanzetti
Basically pick a gun designed by John Moses Browning and you would have something accurate for that time period.
I think there's two questions here.
First, 'what types of firearms could be encountered in 1925?' I would hazard mainly the following;
- Magazine rifles of military-grade ammo, such as the Lee-Enfield, Mosin-Nagant, Gewehr 98 etc.
- Revolvers such as Webley top-breaks, Colt Police Positive, Bodeo etc. Rule of thumb; the 'civilian' models would use a weaker calibre.
- Shotguns, break-action ones. Mainly 12-gauge, but civilian models might be 20-gauge.
There would also be some;
- Semi-automatic pistols such as the Mauser C96, Colt 1911, Nambu etc.
- Pump-action shotguns like the Winchester 1897.
- Light machine guns like the Lewis, Browning Automatic Rifle, Masden etc.
- Single-shot rifles, from older military guns like the Martini–Henry or Berdan or lighter civilian 'varmint'/'rook' rifles designed for pest control.
- Light 'pocket pistols' such as the classic Remington derringer or the Velo-Dog revolver.
It's also possible, though unlikely to see;
- Submachine guns, like the Thompson or MP 18.
- Heavy pistols firing shotgun/rifle rounds, like the Howdah or Lancaster.
- Elephant guns [very heavy-calibre single-shot rifles].
- Heavy belt-fed machine guns, like the Maxim or Vickers.
In this period, there generally wasn't much division between 'civilian'/'military' models - if any at all. It's less than a decade since the end of WW1, and a lot of stock was sold off as 'surplus' after it [to civilians, other countries etc]. Also, weapons can last many a decade; like Gnoman points out, the Lebel might be 'obsolete' by this period but it's still in use by colonial forces, reservists and had been sold on the civilian market as a hunting rifle [and most importantly, can still kill]. Even more remote locations might have even older gear; Snider–Enfield rifles [1860s] were used in WW1 and so the black powder ammo for it was still about.
The other question is the models of firearms. Having experienced the joys of World of Darkness firearms tables, I'd say this - don't bother. Yes, there are differences between a Lee-Enfield, a Mosin-Nagant, a Springfield etc... but they are all for the purposes of an RPG functionally the same weapon [magazine rifle with military grade ammo]. Instead of trying to list them all, simply boil them down to general 'types', produce stats for those and leave it at that - for a modern game we got it down to 11 'types' and I think you could do 9. Otherwise, you would end up producing a 200-page tome laying out every single damn possible gun [if you do it like Gnoman's example] which would be almost completely pointless detail and replicating a load of background on it which in 2024 can easily be pulled off of the relevant Wikipedia page if needed.
For the weapons availability; the easiest manner would be to simply check who rules/ruled the area at this time and then see what gear their forces mainly used in WW1. For example, Kenya at this period was part of the British Empire and thus, you'd be mainly seeing Webleys, Lee-Enfields etc. Places 'in flux' at this time [like China] or independent would a bit more difficult, but even then you can make a fair guess at it from a quick wiki-search. But at doing this I'd ask why you'd bother. If my character is being shot at by a baddie with a pistol, the question 'is it a Mauser, Browning or Beretta?' is only marginally more use than knowing the colour of their trousers. Just generic it as 'small revolver', 'magazine rifle' etc and if they travel to a 'different' country/Empire, handwave that the PCs have traded in their old guns and got ones which use local ammo.
While not good for overviews or building lists, there are 2 youtube channels that can give you very good in depth breakdowns of particular weapons from this era.
1) Forgotten Weapons
2) C&Rsenal
The Old West overlaps the Roaring Twenties.
If there's a supplement of Old West guns they all might well be around in the 20s, especially in distant corners if the world.
I remember seeing a book in the 1960s about the "Wild West", on one page were drawings of many pistols (don't remember rifles, maybe them too). There were many variations in many calibres, there was a twelve shot revolver, a five shot revolver? a 7 shot revolver? a 9 shot revolver? it may be where I learned of the 0.45 Buntline special, there were something like 12 or 15 guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyOne
I doubt it actually existed, but Sabata's pistol in the film of the same name is another possible wild west pistol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabata_(film)