Oriental Dragons

Okay, I asked this same question in Roleplaying Games itself, and the answers I'm getting there... make no sense. So trying here, in 3/3.5 where people might actually know what the hell they're talking about:

Specifically... how do the Oriental Dragons and the Western Dragons feel about each other? They're all "true" dragons, but eastern ones aren't chromatic nor metallic, and neither are they alignment locked by their type. Furthermore, oriental dragons are tied to the Celestial Bureaucracy, so how do they feel about Tiamat and Bahamut in general? Do they respect them but from a distance? Do they deny being linked to them in any way whatsoever? Is there a grudging truce between the two Dragon Gods and the Jade Court, where they just agree to not bother one another? Do the Eastern Dragons resent them for not following their "duty" or the "divine plan" of Asgorath, and fighting instead of mating to produce the "perfect" dragons? There's lots of ways this could go.

Normally Kara'Tur is far enough away from the Sword Coast that most players and DMs don't have to worry about this kind of thing, but in the campaign I'm in, the Cult of the Dragon has succeeded in releasing Tiamat from the Nine Hells. Now, her and Bahamut are potentially going to be actively at war again, (the players are trying to actually have them restore the Dragon Empire, where both sides worked together but...) and me and the DM are wondering if they'll be reaching out to their Eastern cousins for aid in an attempt to break the stalemate, or what, among other things.

Yes, Rise of Tiamat is 5e, but we're old school D&D players who've been around from 1st and 2nd edition, and so we incorporate old lore to fill the many holes 5e has since they haven't covered everything. And since they pretty much just re-mix the old stuff anyway, it's probably the close regardless.

To clarify, I'm not asking for ideas on how to fix a hole if there is no lore on this. I can do that myself really, I just prefer to not do that in an established world if there is already an answer. If there is no lore on this, then I'll just fix the hole myself with something sensible. But if there is lore on it... that's what I'm here asking about.

Thanks!

I don't know of any lore here. As far as I know Tiamat would be a different pantheon from what the oriental dragons care about, so I imagine they will not care much about them... if they are knowleadgeable enough to know they are a thing. If it comes to bother them they will fight it, but besides that I don't think they would get involved or care about the results in one way or another.

They will follow whatever the guys up top say they should do.

The only thing I heard in that direction is that there's next to no interaction, and that the lung dragons are spirit beings created by the oriental pantheons, probably inspired by Io's children.

Aha research! FR isn't my normal gaming so I don't expect to have great answers. In regards to Lore, and changes in edition, Kara'Tur is a mess. There may not being any specific lore linking the different types of dragons. The little I can lookup is from AD&D and 3rd ed, and both say similar things in regard the Oriental Dragons, and nothing in regard to any relationship to the Chromatic/Metallics.

AD&D Oriental Adv: Most oriental dragons are officials in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Each type has been charged with some aspect of government.
3.0 Monsters of Faerun: Although all dragons are believed to have come from the same roots tens of thousands of years ago, the present varieties keep to themselves and cooperate only under extreme circumstances, such as a powerful mutual threat. Good dragons never work with evil dragons, however, though a few neutral specimens have been found with either. When evil dragons of different varieties encounter one another, they usually fight to protect their territories. Good dragons are more tolerant, though also very territorial, and usually try to work out differences in a peaceful manner.
3.5 Oriental Adv: All lung dragons have the spirit subtype, and most are officials of the Celestial Bureaucracy, a governing body of powerful spirits. Each variety has its own role and task to perform.

My opinion: I'd expect all three dragon groups to try and keep to themselves, though in this case, the good dragons might send a representative/ to ask assistance from the Celestials. I feel the Jade Court would not want to get involved at all, delaying a response, making excuses, etc, but if there was a threat to their land/peace/people, they would grudgingly get involved. Exactly how they get involved would depend on individuals alignment/interests/responsibilities... as well as any orders they were specifically given.

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Originally Posted by Tzardok

The only thing I heard in that direction is that there's next to no interaction, and that the lung dragons are spirit beings created by the oriental pantheons, probably inspired by Io's children.

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Created by the Celestial Bureaucracy? Are you sure? Do you have a reference for that? I'd love to delve more into that if possible. (Even if you only know where it came from rather than having a link, that's useful. For example, if you know that it was written up in a particular Dungeon magazine or something.)

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Originally Posted by Tarmor

Aha research! FR isn't my normal gaming so I don't expect to have great answers. In regards to Lore, and changes in edition, Kara'Tur is a mess. There may not being any specific lore linking the different types of dragons. The little I can lookup is from AD&D and 3rd ed, and both say similar things in regard the Oriental Dragons, and nothing in regard to any relationship to the Chromatic/Metallics.

AD&D Oriental Adv: Most oriental dragons are officials in the Celestial Bureaucracy. Each type has been charged with some aspect of government.
3.0 Monsters of Faerun: Although all dragons are believed to have come from the same roots tens of thousands of years ago, the present varieties keep to themselves and cooperate only under extreme circumstances, such as a powerful mutual threat. Good dragons never work with evil dragons, however, though a few neutral specimens have been found with either. When evil dragons of different varieties encounter one another, they usually fight to protect their territories. Good dragons are more tolerant, though also very territorial, and usually try to work out differences in a peaceful manner.
3.5 Oriental Adv: All lung dragons have the spirit subtype, and most are officials of the Celestial Bureaucracy, a governing body of powerful spirits. Each variety has its own role and task to perform.

My opinion: I'd expect all three dragon groups to try and keep to themselves, though in this case, the good dragons might send a representative/ to ask assistance from the Celestials. I feel the Jade Court would not want to get involved at all, delaying a response, making excuses, etc, but if there was a threat to their land/peace/people, they would grudgingly get involved. Exactly how they get involved would depend on individuals alignment/interests/responsibilities... as well as any orders they were specifically given.

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That's more than I had previously, so a big help! The more info I have on them the better I can patch things together without having to worry about screwing myself somehow with lore issues later. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by lunasmeow

Created by the Celestial Bureaucracy? Are you sure? Do you have a reference for that? I'd love to delve more into that if possible. (Even if you only know where it came from rather than having a link, that's useful. For example, if you know that it was written up in a particular Dungeon magazine or something.)

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Sorry, I misremembered. My brain turned "powerful spirit beings in the service of the Celestial Bureaucracy" into "powerful spirit beings created as servants of the Celestial Bureaucracy", probably because I assumed that all spirit beings of that kind were created that way. :smallfrown:

I still am of the opinion that they were made to reflect the Io-derived dragons, but I sadly can't prove it.

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Originally Posted by lunasmeow

Okay, I asked this same question in Roleplaying Games itself, and the answers I'm getting there... make no sense. So trying here, in 3/3.5 where people might actually know what the hell they're talking about:

Specifically... how do the Oriental Dragons and the Western Dragons feel about each other? They're all "true" dragons, but eastern ones aren't chromatic nor metallic, and neither are they alignment locked by their type.

Thanks!

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Sorry if this ends up sounding nitpicky, but Chromatic and Metallic Dragons, at least in 3.5 are not "alignment locked by their type". Always X alignment just means exceptions are rare, but any creature with free will (and mental ability score to enable such) can change to any alignment.

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Originally Posted by Remuko

Sorry if this ends up sounding nitpicky, but Chromatic and Metallic Dragons, at least in 3.5 are not "alignment locked by their type". Always X alignment just means exceptions are rare, but any creature with free will (and mental ability score to enable such) can change to any alignment.

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Exceptions don't make rules though. Metallic and Chromatic are specifically denoted to be X alignment per their type. On the other hand, Lung dragons are specifically noted to not be that way in the description of them. Which means, exeptions or not, the general truth of things stands. It's not any different than saying "Humans have two legs and two arms". It remains true, even if rare individuals are born without. Specific examples do not, and never will, make general truths not true. It only means that we have to be intelligent enough to understand the simple fact that exceptions exist. Which, we have understood for a very long time, hence the very old saying "there's an exception to every rule".

People speak generally. If we had to list every single exception of every single thing every time we talked, we'd never actually get a conversation done. Also, alignment was a lot stricter in the older versions than it is in the newer ones. To the point that for those rare exceptions? 3/3.5 lore has rituals that dragons would undergo to change their color to match whatever alignment they were so that they very much still did fit into a simple "type". Rarely undergone, but also rarely needed so... how many of the exceptions did it, VS didn't do it? I couldn't say.

Could you meet a dragon that hadn't yet undergone such a ritual? Sure. Was it likely? Not really. So, in every effective manner that matters for general conversation... they're "locked" to their type. If you want to talk about specific rare instances that are probably less than 1% of the population, that's a whole different topic. But yes, I'm aware that "always" really means, "one can assume it to be some high number, to the point where it may as well be well over 90% of the time, or close enough to where it doesn't make any difference". Mostly because that's also what it tends to mean in real life too. I simply pointed it out because, as previously mentioned, it was specifically noted on their general description.

Bascially, general trumps specific, unless what is being discussed is a specific instance of a thing. That said, don't worry, it's fine - I do appreciate the attempt to pass along the information, I'm just already aware. If it wasn't obvious from my overly long response, I am also "nitpicky" when it comes to making sure the facts are correct, lol. So no worries at all! Not sure if you were aware of the ritual for color change that they had available too, so maybe that buit might be new to you, maybe not. Regardless, don't worry about me getting offended at someone trying to just give information, I'm all for it!

http://www.candlekeep.com/

check out the forums at candlekeep

the unofficial fan page of the realms, ed greenwood and a number of other realms authors have been known to post there, that will probly get you the best responces to FR lore

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Originally Posted by lunasmeow

Exceptions don't make rules though. Metallic and Chromatic are specifically denoted to be X alignment per their type. On the other hand, Lung dragons are specifically noted to not be that way in the description of them. Which means, exeptions or not, the general truth of things stands. It's not any different than saying "Humans have two legs and two arms". It remains true, even if rare individuals are born without. Specific examples do not, and never will, make general truths not true. It only means that we have to be intelligent enough to understand the simple fact that exceptions exist. Which, we have understood for a very long time, hence the very old saying "there's an exception to every rule".

People speak generally. If we had to list every single exception of every single thing every time we talked, we'd never actually get a conversation done. Also, alignment was a lot stricter in the older versions than it is in the newer ones. To the point that for those rare exceptions? 3/3.5 lore has rituals that dragons would undergo to change their color to match whatever alignment they were so that they very much still did fit into a simple "type". Rarely undergone, but also rarely needed so... how many of the exceptions did it, VS didn't do it? I couldn't say.

Could you meet a dragon that hadn't yet undergone such a ritual? Sure. Was it likely? Not really. So, in every effective manner that matters for general conversation... they're "locked" to their type. If you want to talk about specific rare instances that are probably less than 1% of the population, that's a whole different topic. But yes, I'm aware that "always" really means, "one can assume it to be some high number, to the point where it may as well be well over 90% of the time, or close enough to where it doesn't make any difference". Mostly because that's also what it tends to mean in real life too. I simply pointed it out because, as previously mentioned, it was specifically noted on their general description.

Bascially, general trumps specific, unless what is being discussed is a specific instance of a thing. That said, don't worry, it's fine - I do appreciate the attempt to pass along the information, I'm just already aware. If it wasn't obvious from my overly long response, I am also "nitpicky" when it comes to making sure the facts are correct, lol. So no worries at all! Not sure if you were aware of the ritual for color change that they had available too, so maybe that bit might be new to you, maybe not. Regardless, don't worry about me getting offended at someone trying to just give information, I'm all for it!

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yeah a lot of people aren't and ones that are usually wouldn't say something like "alignment locked" because that indicates it can't be changed thus my misunderstanding. I think I may have heard about that ritual before but if i was i had forgotten about it. So thanks for sharing that so I now know (or remembered) it!

Also I figured alignment was probably a lot stricter before, and I'm glad its not that way in 3rd/3.5e.

"Locked" doesn't mean "can't be changed". Just ask any rogue.

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Originally Posted by lunasmeow

3/3.5 lore has rituals that dragons would undergo to change their color to match whatever alignment they were so that they very much still did fit into a simple "type".

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:smallconfused: Source, please?

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Originally Posted by Remuko

yeah a lot of people aren't and ones that are usually wouldn't say something like "alignment locked" because that indicates it can't be changed thus my misunderstanding. I think I may have heard about that ritual before but if i was i had forgotten about it. So thanks for sharing that so I now know (or remembered) it!

Also I figured alignment was probably a lot stricter before, and I'm glad its not that way in 3rd/3.5e.

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Like I said, no worries! And thanks.

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Originally Posted by Chronos

"Locked" doesn't mean "can't be changed". Just ask any rogue.

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It's all about perspective!

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Originally Posted by ShurikVch

:smallconfused: Source, please?

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Yeah sure. It might take me a week or two, as I'm a bit busy with stuff right now, but I'll get it to ya!

Edit: It may take a bit longer - I forgot just how much 3/3.5 stuff I have to go through... also I have to check 2E as well, because I may have mixed that up and it might be from there, though I do believe it was 3/3.5E.

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Originally Posted by ShurikVch

:smallconfused: Source, please?

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Savage Species has rituals that outsiders may undergo to change subtypes. Presumably, a dragon could change their subtype (Air, Fire, Cold). But AFAIK, those rituals don't change their color.